This Agence France-Presse report is from today’s issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer.
CAMP PENDLETON, California—A US Navy Fil-Am medic told a military court Friday how seven Marines dragged an Iraqi civilian from his home and shot him in cold blood before covering up the brutal slaying.
In dramatic testimony at the US Marine Corps base, Camp Pendleton, in southern California, Melson Bacos said he had watched in horror as 52-year-old Hashim Ibrahim Awad was bound and gagged before being gunned down.
Bacos, a Purple Heart recipient who is the son of immigrants from the Philippines and who was jailed for a year after a plea deal that saw him admit to kidnapping but cleared of murder, said the killing had arisen out of frustration at the reputed release of a “known terrorist.”
The April 26 killing in Hamdania is one of a series of incidents that has tarnished the reputation of American troops in Iraq.Bacos said that during a patrol to look for roadside bombs, squad leader Lawrence Hutchins plotted to go to the suspected insurgent’s house to “get him.”
If the plan failed, the Marines would “find someone else,” Bacos said.After failing to locate their intended target, the Marines raided the house next door, Bacos said. Two Marines pulled Awad outside and took him to a hole that had been dug to look like one used for roadside bombs, he said.The Marines grabbed a shovel lying outside another home, then went inside and grabbed an AK-47 assault rifle, Bacos said.
He said Hutchins ordered the Marines to fire AK-47 rounds into the air “to make it look like we were in a firefight with this man.”‘Sick to my stomach’Hutchins fired the first few shots, then other Marines fired rounds, Bacos said. Another soldier, Lance Corporal Robert Pennington, wiped fingerprints off the assault rifle, he said.
The Marines then bound the hands and feet of Awad and gagged him before firing three shots into his head, Bacos said. Hutchins then radioed headquarters and reported that his squad had killed a man in a firefight.Bacos said he felt “sick to my stomach” following the killings and said he had tried to intervene.“I tried to stop others from killing,” Bacos said. “I wanted to be part of the team. Now I have to live with this for the rest of my life. I feel like my honor is gone. I apologize to my country.”
Bacos, who has been removed from custody at Camp Pendleton for his own safety, was later jailed for a year after earlier being told he could face a life sentence for his role in the killing.“Hopefully that (Iraqi) family will forgive us for what we have done,” Bacos told reporters in brief comments after the case.
Prosecutor Nicholas Gannon argued Bacos should be given no less than 10 to 15 years behind bars and a dishonorable discharge, describing his actions as “too little, too late.”“They force-marched this man, on a walk of death, almost a thousand meters,” Gannon told the court. “(Bacos) followed behind, watching Mr. Awad limp on.”
Bacos’ lawyers said that with time in custody already served, their client could be freed by the end of the year.
Two of the seven Marines involved in the case, John Jodka and Marshall Magincalda, pleaded not guilty to murder on Wednesday.Jodka, a 20-year-old private, will stand trial on March 5, following the completion of Magincalda’s court-martial, which gets under way on Feb. 1.Marine commander Gen. James Mattis has already said the death penalty will not be sought for the two soldiers.Five other Marines involved are yet to stand trial.
More articles on Melson Bacos in http://www.patriotdefensefund.com/home.html and http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=439496
Bacos’ photo from the Journal Sentinel Online.
Fil-Ams who are in the US service have become controversial of sort. Remember that US Fil-Am Army General who reported the soldiers’ abuse on Iraqi prisoners? Let’s hope these white pigs in uniform don’t retaliate against our Fil-Am soldiers.
Here’s a news item I just came across today. I thought I was reading “GMA dies in road accident”.
GMA Channel 7 reporter dies in road accident
A reporter of GMA Channel 7 died in a vehicular accident yesterday morning in Lagro, Quezon City, the fourth mediaman to die in a road mishap in less than two months.
Ugliness of war! Men has been killing since the beginning of time, and Iraq is not the end. Other countries are more dangerous than Iraq with having nuclear weapon. And to do nothing is even worse when the enemies can’t be reasoned.
Ellen:
I did not get the chance to go to Iraq with the fact-finding mission for the International Criminal Tribunal for Iraq because of the ban right after two of our members were kidnapped there and almost got beheaded, but I have met victims of this war on Iraq who were brought to Japan as witnesses in the people’s tribunal we conducted here. Ex-ICJ Judge Capulong in fact served as Chief Prosecutor there because of the participation of the over-acting Bansot in this war that she pretended to abandon amidst the Angelo Cruz’s kidnapping.
I have a nephew in fact who thought of enlisting right after the attack on Iraq with all the propaganda of an America under attack. He was telling my mother that he had to serve his country even to the point of cursing the Iraqis until I told him that it was Bush he should curse and not the Iraqis who had nothing to do with Bin Laden or the WTC attack.
He would not believe me then, of course, but at least, I was able to stop him from enlisting telling him that I could pay for his college tuition and forget about the GI Bill. I guess his Vietnamese girlfriend, a daughter of a refugee, must have told him about the horror of the war in Vietnam, and he never mentioned about enlisting anymore.
I’m glad at least that he is opted in the end not to be part of this madness that Filipinos in the US, especially the Republicans, have fallen into hook, line and sinker.
For more information on this war on Iraq, please visit:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
http://www.albasrah.net
Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba investigated on alleged abuse of prisoners by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad,Iraq. He did not find any evidence written or otherwise that the military police members involved in the abuse were ordered to soften up prisoners for interrogation. The investigators did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. The Taguba report found numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses constituting systematic and illegal abuse of detainees. Midlevel intelligence agents and interogators were partly blamed for the Abu Ghraib abuses. A senior intelligence officer “fall girl” Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast was sacked by President Bush in order to save his ass.
This should read: I’m glad at least that he HAS opted in the end not to be part of this madness that Filipinos in the US, especially the Republicans, have fallen into hook, line and sinker.
BTW, I have the video clip of the beheading and mutilation of the two US soldiers suspected by the Iraqis of being part of the platoon doing similar atrocities on them as the above case. It was bizarre, but I would probably show no mercy if I were a relative of the Iraqi victims.
Worse are the rapes committed on young boys and girls by these horny US soldiers. How will Bush pay for “these mistakes”? Hear him say that it cannot be helped because it is war that he himself has started! Walang pinag-iba doon sa idiot na nakalambitin sa haligi ng Malacanang! 😡
In war things could turn ugly, no matter how discipline a soldier could be, religious and beliefs included, when faced with life and death situation, rational thinking by individual or even by units could sometimes get overcome by battlefield emotions. I have so many friends here, who had served in Philippines marines and the stories they tell can make your hair stand on end. And also a few friends on the other side (NPA) who could tell me just as horrible experience. Maybe they do tell their stories as kind of outlets, but in every one of them, they in some way or the other had broken the rules of engagements. And they also told me how their enemies played the same game. War is ugly on all sides.
cannot really blame Melson Bacos nor the soldiers who shot the 52-year-old iraqi. These soldiers are just pawns used by incompetent administration. These administrators deliberately fail to extend the the Iraq war, to get others to hate Americans and force to get to new wars. War is very profitable to these war mongerers.
These soldiers are very pressured put upon them by these administrators. Soldiers live in small tents in the Iraqi desert. Soldiers have over extended their tour of duties. Recrutement standard has been set to very low to get more soldiers. For instance, “Jared Guinther, who was diagnosed with autism at 3 years-old got a thumbs up from Army recruiters in Portland to one of the most dangerous jobs.”
And then this defense sectrary Rumsfeld still remains on the job, after several high top generals have ask his resignation. The great GWB only reason for not firing Rumsfeld is that because he the President is the decider. So much incompetence all around that is needed.
Evil talaga itong USA at pinu-prosecute ang sariling sundalo for alleged crimes. Samantala, ang bait ng mga kalaban dahil ginagantimpalaan ang mga kasamang pumapatay ng walang labang sibilyan.
Ellen:
Here’s the Washington Post story on this case:
Sailor Details Killing of Iraqi Civilian
Medic Testifies Against Marines In Plea Agreement
By Sonya Geis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, October 7, 2006; A16
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif., Oct. 6 — Eight members of a Marine squad planned to kill a suspected Iraqi insurgent and developed a cover story before their April raid, but when they could not find their target, they pulled a neighbor from his bed and shot him to death instead, a Navy medic who was part of the group testified Friday.
Melson J. Bacos offered the first testimony in the case — one of several the government has brought against servicemen charged with assaulting and killing Iraqi civilians — and it came as the result of a plea bargain for the hospital corpsman 3rd class. Bacos and seven Marines in his squad were charged with shooting a civilian in the Iraqi town of Hamdaniyah on April 26, then planting a shovel and an AK-47 next to him to make it appear he was burying a roadside bomb.
In exchange for his testimony and an agreement to testify against his former squadmates, prosecutors dropped murder charges against Bacos and accused him instead of kidnapping and conspiracy. Bacos, 21, was effectively sentenced to about seven more months in the brig.
The seven Marines still face charges of premeditated murder, kidnapping and conspiracy.
In quiet but vivid testimony in a courtroom on the military base where he had been imprisoned since May 23, Bacos mostly corroborated the government’s account of the slaying and added new detail.
With his wife and father sitting behind him, Bacos haltingly told the court that the squad of eight servicemen was on ambush patrol when their leader gathered them under a tree in a palm grove and said he had a plan. Sgt. Lawrence G. Hutchins III wanted to kill an Iraqi named Saleh Gowad, who Hutchins thought was an insurgent, Bacos said. Gowad had been detained and released three times, Bacos testified, and Hutchins “was mad that we kept letting him go.”
Hutchins assigned each man a role: Bacos and two others would steal a shovel and an AK-47 to plant near the body, while others would go to Gowad’s home and pull him out at night, Bacos said. They planned to dig a hole so it would seem Gowad had been burying a bomb when he was killed.
If Gowad was not home, they would carry out their plan on another civilian, Bacos testified. They agreed to lie to military investigators who would come behind them.
“We all said, ‘I’m in,’ ” Bacos said.
At 3 a.m. on April 26, the squad put the plan in action, Bacos said. When they went to Gowad’s home, “one of the family members woke up and saw us,” Bacos said. “So Corporal [Trent D.] Thomas and Corporal [Marshall L.] Magincalda pointed at the house next door.”
Thomas and Magincalda went into the house while Bacos and a Marine waited outside. The pair came out with Hashim Ibrahim Awad, Bacos said. Awad was a 52-year-old father of 11 with an injured leg who had worked as a policeman from 1969 to 1990, two of Awad’s brothers told military investigators in a videotaped interview that was played in court Friday. Bacos said he did not know Awad’s name at the time and had no reason to suspect him of insurgent activity.
The Marines bound his feet and gagged him, Bacos said.
Bacos said he saw Hutchins fire “three rounds into the man’s head,” Bacos said. “And after, I saw Corporal Thomas fire seven to 10 rounds into the man’s chest.”
Bacos said he then fired the stolen weapon into the air to make it sound as if a firefight had occurred, he said.
Bacos told Col. Steven Folsom, a military judge, that he had tried to stop the squad members from killing Awad. “I knew what we were doing was wrong,” he said. “I tried to say something, sir, and then I decided to look away.”
“Why didn’t I do more to stop it? Why didn’t I just walk away?” Bacos asked during his sentencing. “The answer to that question is, I wanted to be part of the team. I wanted to be loyal. I wanted to be a respected corpsman. But wanting to be a loyal, respected corpsman is not an excuse for immorality. . . . I apologize to my country, to the United States Navy and to the United States Marine Corps . . . and I also ask forgiveness of the Iraqi family.”
Bacos was moved two days ago from the brig at Camp Pendleton to a cell at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. His plea agreement includes a provision that he be notified if any of his co-conspirators are to be housed in the facility where he is serving his sentence.
Government prosecutors argued that Bacos deserved 10 to 15 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge. “This court has a responsibility to harness this tragedy to send a general message to all of the troops serving in Iraq that if you commit a crime of this magnitude, you will face swift and severe justice,” said Capt. Nicholas Gannon, the government’s attorney.
Bacos can expect blistering cross-examination when he testifies at the courts-martial for the Marines in his squad, said Eugene R. Fidell, a former military prosecutor who now is president of the National Institute of Military Justice. “I know a number of the lawyers involved in the case, and these are not potted plants,” he said.
A defense attorney for Hutchins, Lt. Col. Joe Smith, said, “At this point we look forward to proceeding with the case, and think that a much more complete picture will develop through the proceedings.”
© 2006 The Washington Post Company
Frankly, I am against war, because no matter what they say, it is not good for men to kill their own kind. Whether one does it for good or evil, there is the traumatic effect, and the smell of blood will always be there to haunt one who has shed the blood of his fellow human being. I have seen this in the many Filipinos I have interpreted for murder. Kind of being cursed for life!
WARS make beasts of men!
This has been proven time and again in tha last WW, the Nazi Camps, inside the Gulag, the long Vietnam War, Bosnia, Kosovo, and now the once-beautiful Iraq. Beasts of all colors, creeds, and leanings hav paraded themselves as beasts of the highest level.
Likewise, there are also beasts in and around Manila hiding under the blue-cloak of a dress with stilleto shoes and a fatso [altho he dislikes the description] of a husband.
They have ruled over everyone, trying to tame intelligent people into subservience by filing libel charges, or, worse, killing them.
Who’s gonna stop the beasts of Satan?
Certainly and hopefully, the savior must march sooner rather than later for the Country we all love to move on.
As it is, the stalemate continues….as lapdogs upon lapdogs, tutas, and sipsips proliferate and sing praises to their satanic head.
Lord, make it soon!
IN ANY WAR,
the survival of the fittest and doing what one thinks is right to “make even” with the enemy is the regular norm.
IN WARS, soldiers have the “license” to kill anyone who earn their ire. May baril, eh di kakasa!
It is different in tiem of peace.
Teka, may PEACE ba sa Bansa? Nagtatanong lang pow! Dami kasi ng pinapatay, eh….
Dapat sa mga sundalo [lahat!] “kumasa” sa mga lahat masasama. Tutal, sila ang “tagapag-alaga ng kapayapaan sa Bayan”…. di ba?
Sino sa palagay nyo ang UNANG dapat i-firing squad ng mga sundalong mahilig mamaril?
May suhestiyon ako: Yung mga bogus…..
Call!
everything is fair in love and war, this was an old saying. today even war has rules.except of course the evil ones.
Kung nakuha ko si Taipan, ang pinaka kailangan ng bansang Pilipinas ay gera. Give me a gun and a chance to face Esperon and I’ll blow his head off. And if I’m still alive, lets go after Palparan. Unang una gagawin ay baguhin ang pagmamahala na hindi sila pwedeng mangurakot kahit kailin, at kahit kaunti. Dapat lang ay magtrabaho ng mabuti.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
Josephs,
Did you really mean it? “can’t blame Melson Bacos nor the other soldiers who shot the 52-yr old Iraqi…”?
These men went in there and willfully, intentionally, voluntarily MURDERED an unarmed man. And we can’t blame them? They had the opportunity and the power at that very moment over the life and death of a human being – there was no need to take the life of that man (who is NOT an animal). Given the circumstances, the soldiers should have BACKED OFF yet they did the unthinkable. That was not war! That was plain MURDER!
There is no excuse for willful, voluntary, intentional murder.
The excuse that war brings out the worst in men is true but when a group of men in military uniform, in the service of an ideal (supposedly) go out of their way to wrong a civilian and to commit murder in cold-blood, there is absolutely no excuse.
Blames should be heaped on them – they should be punished accordingly.
Do you realize that in Britain, there are forums (as well as people in media) who are already discussing and proposing the criminal liability of our British troops, including that old sod, Prime Minister Tony Blair to face a court for war crimes for UK’s participation in the war on Iraq?
Some generals in the British Army and even those who are stationed in NATO are aware that there is a risk that British military authorities and the political leadership in the UK risk to be charged with war crimes. We in Europe have taken this invasion of Iraq very seriously.
The British people have had serious doubts about the legality of this invasion and more so, after they discovered that the war ON Iraq (and not WITH Iraq) was based on lies, confirmed NO LESS by the CIA and the US Senate. There is a serious loathing for the war on Iraq and this is the major reason why Tony Blair is getting kicked out.
Reason? US and British militaries defied the Geneva Convention.
Yes, Anna, it is plain and simple murder! The Iraqi civilian was even kidnapped and killed mercilessly even when there was no evidence that the guy was a terrorist, and as per Bacos’ confession, was just taken fancy by the blood hungry and “bored” US soldiers.
I’m really glad, my nephew listened to me, and I would not mind the additional burden on my pockets of sending him to college instead of seeing him risk his life in Bush’s wars.
Josephs,
Lest I be accused of being thoroughly beastly, I do accept that those young boys who were sent to Iraq are not educated, are probably products of equally miserable family backgrounds…
They were sent there for a purpose, to satisfy a societal revenge. They lived a life of misery in Iraq compounded by an “ideal” that was thoroughly warped. And so they snapped.
The real culprits, when you boil down to it are those that gave the orders for these boys (they are terribly young) to commit the unthinkable.
At the end of the day and when this is over, when the dust has gathered back, there will be reckoning and it is likely that the political leadership of the United States and Great Britain will have a lot of explaining to do.
The Guantanamo Bay prison represents everything that democracy despises – it is the summum of all that is unacceptable if we are to remain civilized and for that, George Bush must be charged with war crimes, his VP and his Minister of Defence. They too are the ones responsible for turning soldiers into murderers in cold blood!
Yuko,
Even if there was “evidence” that he was a terrorist – the poor man was ALONE, UNARMED and already surrounded, caught and gagged by a group of fully, heavily armed, physically more powerful American troopers… Why take his life away when at that VERY moment, the man could no longer, physically be of any danger to the troopers?
We claim Western ideal today (the US croons about it) is supposed to be a notch higher than the beasts that surround us – we cannot allow to descend into the pit of those who are not like us.
There are rules of engagement in warfare prescribed by the Geneva Convention – we either follow it or we don’t. If we are signatories to that Convention, we should respect it, if not, we should face the consequence.
This year, Britain has made bullying (by school kids) in school illegal. Parents will be issued a hefty fine on behalf of their kids and if the bullying continues, the child and the parents will have to face a children’s court and meted due punishment.
It is one step up towards civilizing a beastly world. Troops should be no different, their leaders too and the highest authorities all the more.
those who kill hapless persons for no apparent reason most especially whom they turned their ire when not able to find their target are bringing themselves to the level of the beast. and there is no amount of explanation that can justify the committed crime even in times of war!
anna, the soldiers sent by the US to fight in iraq were reservists hastily called to active duty without even undegoing combat training, hence their beastly attitude.
…were mostly reservists hastily called to active duty without even undergoing combat training, …..
Yuko,
My nephew in the Philippines wanted to go to PMA – he would have qualified; no less than the PMA superintendent at that time said he saw no reason why my nephew would not be able to make it (he had good grades, right height, bulk, etc.) but I said NO.
Instead I suggested that he joined the the marine academy in Bataan which I know didn’t do any hazing at all and is set up in terms of basic curriculum after the PMA.
The reason why I didn’t allow him to enter the PMA was because I knew that the Philippine military has a long way to go in terms of professional soldiery. I feared that my nephew would end up wearing a military uniform with warped ideals and since that uniform entailed carrying a gun, I didn’t want him to be used and abused for all the wrong reasons.
I’m familiar with the western military, my own boy will be joining a military academy cadet in keeping with the family tradition – and I’m a bit frustrated that today, we call ourselves civilized yet we’ve fallen into the old age trap of warring for warring. Utterly despicable!
Mrivera,
I agree that Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld sent mostly young or unprofessional troopers to Iraq whose only qualification was that of being Sunday soldiers!
Thank you for your thought – you’ve been with the military and know what soldiering means, its scope, its power, limits and its responsibilities.
Anna,
Saddam Hussien is caught. Al Zarqawi is dead. Iraq already has its democratic elections. Bin Laden, AlQueda and Taliban are in Afganistan/Pakistan and not anywhere close in Iraq. The worst thing that this Bush administration has done is not to give the war and these soldiers any purpose. This is an endless war, where Bush always says to “Stay the Course.” There is no dividing line between the good guys and the bad guys. There is no big bad leader and his minions that they can aim at. There is no objective to save people in distress from the enemy. In fact, there is no enemy.
So each soldiers can define their own objectives. This 52-year old man Iraqi for one is a muslim, and the muslims are the ones who did 9/11, so kill him. I can define you an objective too. I can set the dividing line which in my point of view the Green Zone. So anyone outside of it is my enemy.
This war is abnormal, created by abnormal people, who is aiming for abnormal things.
One more point. A soldier who has a really understanding of my points I have only made here will go mad, if sent to Iraq. I am already mad.
Ah, Josephs, I can verily say that “now we see eye to eye”!
Your statement is true – reason all the more to drag George Bush to court for war crimes for causing havoc on the ideals of the US Marines!
A well-known British investigative journalist with The Times recently asked this question:
“Deliberately killing a terrorist is illegal, but so too would be handing him over to the Americans to be tortured. What then are British troops to do? Could they find themselves charged with war crimes for simply doing their job?”
Here was my reply which he published in his weblog:
“My two cents’ worth:
“1. British troops keep captured terrorists and not hand them over to US troops – so that they can be investigated (not tortured), tried and judged according to Geneva conventions.
“2. British troops are quite likely to be charged with war unless they operate distinctly and separately from US troops, or for that matter – Tony Blair in the future might stand accused of war crimes.
“If you ask me, because British troops are merely following higher orders, technically they shouldn’t be liable for war crimes. It’s the old sod, Tony Blair who should face the jury in a war crimes court.”
Same thing happen in the hinterland, in the Barrios, away from the investigative eyes os journalists, unknowing to most of the citizenry.
The reign of terror has begun some five years ago, to silence those who oppose her whims….
Some are left for kins to find, bloodied and cold. Some have disappeared and have not been seen since then.
Don’t these hapless victims deserve justice?
These happen right in our own country, apparently with the blessings of those who have tasted power and have made it their life’s ambition to achieve status quo.
RE:bushit, gma and tonyboy:
Bush, to me is a lot of B!
Blair is his poodle.
Gloria wants recognition as a leader,
so she makes those palabas….TH [TryingHard] even.
She wants to be “IN” the circle, but no matter what she does, she is plain and simple FAKE: sa lahat ng bagay: tawang peke, arteng peke, at ang dating very cold and heartless!
ALL THREE MUST be liable for the numerous deaths of people under their care.
Ellen,
Begging your indulgence. (And calling attention of Yuko and Marvin!)
I just received this forward from a very good friend who is an A1 source about a cyberforum thread that has been going around regarding the Ombusdman. Here it is:
“>
> — In OFW-Gov@yahoogroups.com, “daniellaperez80″
> wrote:
>>
>> For one thing, the Ombudsman’s decision on the COMELEC case should not
>> be allowed to fester as a politically motivated controversy, and those
>> of you who are even tempted to start brandishing insults at this
>> invaluable government agency-don’t! It is imperative to negate any
>> erosion of confidence in our electoral system. And for another, the
>> killing of Aglipayan bishop Ramento has developed into yet another
>> impeding focal point for the opposition to attack the supposed lack of
>> ability to maintain law and order. Not to worry though as the PNP is
>> pressing to solve the case and stop it from becoming any more
>> politically tainted than it already is.”
Actually, the reason why I’m posting this is because my very good friend revealed this: “This Daniellaperez all over the ofw forums now, specifically..ofw-gov… always trying to justify the actions of government.this must be her new email, actually she is the daughter of the pig-giraffe you desribed in your blog.. “
Anna,
Thank you for the follow up question. I wouldn’t be able to express or even think about what I just said, without your question.
Next time, don’t count on it or on me. Eye to eye is a heavy burden.
good night and good luck
Anna,
Something caught my eye…
“Daniellaperez?” ang handle ni baby pork ngayon?
Bakit kaya perez? Anak kaya siya nung Perez na nag 2M scam?
Just wonderin…..:roll:
To anna de brux:
Any military academy in the world has the potential of producing graduates with warped ideals and with the capacity for abuse.
“because I knew that the Philippine military has a long way to go in terms of professional soldiery”
“I’m familiar with the western military…”
What a biased view. I know you are anti-GMA, and I know you believe the military is behind GMA’s continued stay in power. But to call the Philippine military still in a long way in terms of professionalism is uncalled for.
Look at what the ‘professional’ US and UK military did to Iraq.
“and I’m a bit frustrated that today, we call ourselves civilized yet we’ve fallen into the old age trap of warring for warring. Utterly despicable!”
Graduates of West Point and Annapolis are liable to fall for that also.
Anthnoy Scalia,
Of course, to you I have a biased view because I am anti-Gloria and I thank you very much for the compliment.
But let’s be clear about this: I do not believe that the Philippine military is SOLELY the reason why Gloria is still sitting on that perch. I do not condemn the foot soldiers and the young and not quite-senior officers of the Philippine military for her continuing stay in power. A bunch of crooked generals turned and are turning the Philippine military away from their proper mission by instituting a new code of conduct among its ranks of officers and men. These crooked generals and many senior officials are RESPONSIBLE for the state of military we have but not to be outdone, the civilian leadership which has full authority over the life and death of the members of the Philippine military profession are equally and seriously guilty of turning our military into a banana military.
So, don’t go around preaching a totally false or way off idea that isn’t mine. I’ve spent more than half my life and most of my professional life within the military and para-military environment abroad and in Pinas to know what I’m talking about.
Furthermore, foy your comprehension, let me clarify what I said: “and I’m a bit frustrated that today, we call ourselves civilized yet we’ve fallen into the old age trap of warring for warring. Utterly despicable!” I meant that for the Western military generally and not solely for the Philippine military.
And obviously, with that in mind, you could add “Graduates of West Point and Annapolis are liable to fall for that also.” And even the graduates of the prestigious Sandhurst too!
This is what keeps the fire burning for Uncle Sam of U.S. of A.
————————
This is a fantastic summary of events that every American should be familiar with. Make sure your kids and grandkids hear it or read about it. It’s accurate, I lived through these years and although young, still remember hearing it on the radio and reading about it. It was covered in our History classes! I remember seeing “Time Marches On” at the movies covering the Panay Boat incident on the Yangtse River, Rape of Nanking, invincibility of the French Maginot Line, that wasn’t even a bump in the road for Hitler’s Blitzkrieg. These were all events that led up to WW II, similar to the events of the Barracks assault in Lebanon. Cole incident, twin towers and others leading up to Iraq, terrorist WW III.
Oldbud
THIS IS HISTORY THAT HAS BEEN LEFT OUT OF OUR TEXTBOOKS. MOST OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERY FAMILY IN AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY W.W.II. MOST OF YOU DON’T REMEMBER THE RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRES FOR OUR AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THE ROAD. NOT TO MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE WOULD REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2006.
This is an EXCELLENT essay. well thought out and presented.
Historical Significance
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America For food and war materials.
At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.
Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies.
France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico, as launching pads to get into the United States over our northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe. America’s only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia. That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the East, was already under the Nazi heel.
America was certainly not prepared for war. America Had drastically downgraded most of its military forces after W.W.I and throughout the depression, so that at the outbreak of WW2, army units were training with broomsticks because they didn’t have guns, and cars with “tank” painted on the doors because they didn’t have real tanks. And a huge chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.
Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England, that was actually the property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact). Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could. Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering slipping losses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later, and first turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse, in the late summer of 1940.
Ironically, Russia saved America’s butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.
Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone… 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a MILLION soldiers.
Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis could possibly have won the war.
All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of those key moments in history.
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.
The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs — they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world. And that all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is their mantra.
There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East — for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not known yet which will win — the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.
If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies. The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC — not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis. You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.
If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.
We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And we can’t do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing……..in Iraq.
Not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we are doing two important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.
Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won’t have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed..
World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a “whimper” in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 — a 17 year war — and was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again … a 27 year war.
World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year’s GDP — adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars. W.W.II cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed out on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning W.W.II would have been unimaginably greater — a world dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.
There are 60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay. The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be. The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore it.
If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an “England” in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless somebody prevents them.
We have four options:
1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran’s progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).
3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.
4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.
If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win. Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
Remember, perspective is every thing, and America’s schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.
The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least, until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany
World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept.
The US has taken more than 2,000 killed in action in Iraq. The US took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In W.W.II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week — for four years. Most of the individual battles of W.W.II lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.
But the stakes are at least as high … A world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms … or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).
It’s difficult to understand why the American left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.
“Peace Activists” always seem to demonstrate here in America, where it’s safe.
Why don’t we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the most?
The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.
Also, to be perfectly non-biased about the professionalism of the US military in Iraq, let me point out to you that half the contigent of foot soldiers deployed by the US in Iraq were not professional military men! They are what we call in the European hemisphere as Sunday soldiers.
Mrivera could tell you a great deal what professional military is all about! And the US military in Iraq are quasi-professional (you must remember that they inflicted great damage on friendly forces when they couldn’t even identify friends from foes!)
And what is your point Bentong?
That since America is the world’s mightiest military power (though they are seriously stretched thin that NATO had to take full control of Afghanistan) do you believe that America must bamboozle people and wreak havoc on a nation based on lies??????
I have no fight with America when America is just; I have no fight with its ideals when they are just, I have a fight with a warped idea that might is right! This is warped.
America’s descent to hell in Iraq have produced more terrorists than it wanted to destroy – and this is the civilization that America wants to create? A war of nations based on medieval Crusade of a bumbling president?
The arguments you presented are the arguments of a neo-con zealot, a Christianofanatic Islamophobe whose arguments are similar to an Islamofanatic terrorist. At the end of the day, both are categorized as terrorists!
Bentong, Europe has no lessons to learn from Americans!
Ellen,
Bentong’s re-posting of the typical American neo-con zealot, Christianofanatic Islamophobe arguments that leave much to be desired for their historical inaccuracies and philosphical fabulations is typical of true to life US Republican neo-con rants.
To one such Republican neo-con Christianofanatic Islamophobic ranter in a weblong on The Times, Mick Smith, well-known investigative journalist who exposed the Downning Street Memoes (revealing the collusion between Bush and Blair to commit the two countries to an illegal war on Iraq based on lies) cut him down with this ripost:
“[Mick says: There you go again James. “Of course, our coming into World War II against Hitler was necessitated by Europeans not having the gutsoids or the sense to deal with Hitler’s evil to begin with.” Who do you think was standing alone against Hitler while your granddaddy wondered whether America should appease Hitler or fight him? There were plenty of other European countries trying to stand up to Hitler and being too small to hold back his armies but the minute each of those countries was occupied there were resistance movements taking on the Nazis at enormous cost with the Nazis carrying out reprisals, and still the US stood on the sidelines wondering whether or not to join. Dont come lecturing us about appeasement and having the guts to stand up to dictators. This country has nothing to prove to you.]”
And here’s how I sum up American neo-cons Christianofanatic Islamophobes: (Easy to draft a tit-for-tat too particularly when one may safely say that there are less Christianofanatical Europeans dominating Europe governments today than there are under in America’s Bush government!)
“FANATICS!
“When Christianofanatics are satisfied that evil Islamofanatics have been eradicated, Christianofanatics will seek another war to continue their Christianofanatic crusade against those who are not like them.
“They will create another excuse to wipe out those who are not Christianofanatics and there is a risk that Christianofanatics might very well train their guns at the Jews for not being Christians and do a repeat of what the Nazis did.
“Christianofanatics won’t use nailbombs to kill and maim civilian babies and children, they will use the nuke. (To the Jewish: Better teach your children to spot Christianofanatics, they’re more frightening than the evil Islamofanatics.)
“Christianofanatical excuses today won’t change that.”
Bentong:
Thank you for doing an excellent job in presenting your strong argument, the need to be in Iraq and to take the fight to stronghold of the terrorist. I couldn’t have done any better.
By the way, American Troops are all volunteered and well trained professional soldiers. Or, they will not be sent to the front line or in Iraq. Of course, in any war there is exception to the rule. It’s like driving in public highways, always someone driving under the influence everyday and a menace to others.
Again, it’s the ugliness of war, it meant life and death. Some may not agree, but America will defend their way of life at any cost. It doesn’t matter who the President, their resolved in protecting their liberty is beyond one can imagine.
The analogy between the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Germany during World War 2 is flawed. At that time, the decision to focus on Germany first was because of the need to help the remainder of Europe not under German rule (Great Britain and the USSR). At the time of 9/11, Saddam was a effectively being contained by UN sanctions and was not a military threat to any country.
Associating Iraq with the fight against the Islamist is an attempt to rewrite history. In the first place, Saddam was a secular dictator not a ‘Jihadi Islamist’. Moreover, despite the above attempted play with words with the intent to confuse and mislead (i.e. “Saddam is, or was a weapon of mass destruction”), we do not forget the fact that the pretext for invading Iraq (over the objection of the rest of the world) was the threat posed by Saddam’s alleged WMD which turned out to be nonexistent.
The Jihadi Islamists only showed up in significant numbers in Iraq during the time of the American occupation. (It is true that Zarqawi was already in Iraq, but he had his camp in an area not under Saddam’s control, and the Americans had an opportunity to take him out, but chose not to.) By creating a flash point in Iraq, the Americans have strengthened and not weakened the terrorists’ cause, first by losing the hearts and minds of the Muslim world by its atrocities like Abu Ghraib, rapes and murders by American soliders and second by its continued occupation of Arab land. The latest National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) by the CIA has made a similar assessment in that the Iraq War has boosted Islamic Radicalism.
As such, it is false to claim that by invading Iraq, it has been helping the moderate Muslims (what Bentong’s summary calls the ‘Islamic Reformation’). On the contrary, Iraq and similar actions by Israel in Lebanon, and any future action by the West against Iran, will just strengthen the hand of the extremist wings of Islam. Moderation and secularism are what is lost during these wars or any war for that matter.
Lastly, the phrase ‘We are fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here’ also known as the ‘fly paper’ strategy does not take into account the fact that America’s actions has the effect of breeding more flies. The Iraq War has nothing to do with America’s way of life. It has been nothing but a monumental distraction to the real fight against Bin Laden.
America may well defend its way of life but it shouldn’t do so at the expense of all that is basic decency!
The war that we speak of stemmed from an invasion of a nation based on lies.
America’s own CIA and Senate confirmed this.
We in Europe are prepared to defend our way of life too but we loathe defending that way of life when we know that deceit and illegality were the premises of the so-called defence of a way of life.
I hold an American passport and I believe as one who could technically be called “American” I refuse to buy the bullshit and downright political rubbish that a HOLY WAR is what it takes to defend a way of life! If we are to buy that line, we fall in the same category of the beasts that we fight and become in turn Christian terrorists!!!!!.
And I believe there are more decent Americans in America who believe in the basic essence of civilization as being decent and reasonable and who reject the primal insticts of the primitive which George Bush has dearly espoused today!
cvj,
Just like what mlq3 said, yours is the sober, rational way of explaining things and I thank you for posting your thoughts on the matter here..
You have dissected the issue for us in crystal clear fashion. What you said should open the eyes of our countrymen turned American who seem to be blinded by Bush’s hollow rhetorics.
When America went to war in Iraq, it opened the gates of hell. It is hard to judge if you come from a country that has not been attacked by terrorists. Stemming from hurt, anger arises, and I guess decisions made under these circumstances, as we now see with Iraq, doesn’t solve the problem. In fact, it seems to have worsened. But how does America heal its wounds? “‘Vengance is mine,’ sayeth the Lord.” However difficult, America should heed that.
War is simply everything that is ugly.
Even Bush now confesses that Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden. Still, he will not admit the great crime he has committed against the people of Iraq upon whom he took his vengeance (or should I say pretend to take his vengeance) on behalf of the people of America and the victims of the 9/11 attack that they could have prevented since they had one of the supposed attackers already in FBI custody two months before Sept. 11.
When we talk of wars, we cannot avoid talking about the Nazis and the Japanese Imperial Army whose atrocities and crimes against humans will forever be in people’s memory. I won’t talk about the Nazis since these guys were from Europe. I would like to pick on these notorious Japanese criminals since they were in Asia. How many Filipinos, Koreans, Chinese did these Japs kill? Oh yes, one of their apologists and avid defenders would say the Japanese government already compensated quite a lot of sum to the victims? Really? Who victims? Or were these in the forms of aides channeled through each government? What about the comfort women who have not been rendered total justice and are still crying? Many are even crying in their graves? Worse, the Japanese government refuses to write the truth on their history books as to what they really did during the last war. They wrote and published a different history book for their students. Until this day, we don’t hear a sincere apology. Instead, this country has become one of America’s closest allies. What’s wrong with this Land of the Falling Sun?
When we talk of past wars, we try to learn from them. Europe had been a massive theatre of war during huge parts of the past centuries in succession and most Europeans try to bury the hatchet.
I believe we should talk of WWII which happened some 6 decades ago and speak against who initiated them if only to remind those who are about to warmonger that nothing good comes as a result of war, instead, dealing with foreign cultures in homogenous fashion as well as a minimum homogenous distribution of wealth might help…
But to simply poke at the Germans and the Japanese for what their peoples did during WWII (most of whom are all dead in the first place) is not conducive to establishing good will between former enemies turned friends today.
We have punished the Japanese, the Germans, executed many of their military leaders and killed many of their supporters for their initiating havoc on mankind in WWII – I think it’s time to bury the poking, the name calling, the endless taunting, etc. because these acts have no educational impact or value on how to solve today’s beastly conflicts.
Just my observation: Some people who use very strong emotive words to condemn USA and her allies don’t even whisper anything at the brutality and utter cruelty of the terrorists who attack defenseless civilians. They rant at Israel but say nothing at the unprovoked attacks by Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. Sometimes, I almost wish USA would be soundly defeated by her enemies. It’s no secret that Islam want to dominate the whole planet. Sometimes, I almost wish they would. Actually Europe is slowing turning into Eurabia. Since Islam has a lot of defenders and sympathizers, even here, perhaps that day won’t be long.
Anna:
Marvin is not the moderator of the OFW forums. He runs the Talsik and Philippine updates groups. I have nothing to do with the OFW groups, too although I know their moderators.
You bet, Anna, all those responsible for Japan’s aggression in WWII have paid with their lives, and the Japanese people have diligently paid all countries they were told to pay according to the prescription of the SFO treaty through trials and tribulations, and right on time!!!
At least, people here try their best to abide by the provisions of the US tailored Constitution that the Japanese have tried hard to work for them, especially the clause that prohibits Japan from rearming!!!
Over here, we always say “According to the Constitution….”
In the Philippines, the Bansot has set the example for Filipinos to ignore their Constitution, and now she insists on having a new one tailored for her own ambition.
Came across this somewhere.
The Death of Holland
It is sad to see a once-great nation die:
BRUSSELS — Plans for a Muslim-only hospital in the Netherlands have sparked a heated debate over its separate all-male and all-female wings, halal food and roster of duty imams.
A populist nationalist party described the plan for the clinic in south Rotterdam as “a step backwards to the Middle Ages.”
The sexes will be segregated, with male patients treated by an exclusively male nursing and medical staff and similar arrangements for female patients.
I figure it won’t be more than 10 years before Moslems in Europe are living entirely under Sharia law as dying Europe just allows them to govern themselves as they steadily out-breed the Europeans. The only question is what of the 30 million or so Christians in Europe: as the European majority dies off, the Christian minority will gain more and more power – will these Christians contend with Islam for the ownership of Europe, or will they just emigrate, as the Christians of the middle east have largely done over the past 40 years?
Tom,
You are wrong! Expressing one’s opinion that what Bush did – and is doing to Iraq – is not right can not in full nor in part be equated to or considered as coming to the defense of Islamic terrorists.
There is not a single line in any of the statements above which are meant to reject Bush’s invasion of Iraq based on a lie that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling WMDs and was related to Al Qaeda which could be construed as defending Islamofanatic terrorists.
Also, it is extremely demagogical to state that Europe is slowly turning into Eurabia. That statement alone almost reinforces the general notion that America’s war on Iraq in reality, is against Islam and not quite against terrorists as Bush predicated his war on Iraq.
Bush caused more bad will than any US presidents put together these past few decades. In one illegal, terrorist-like stroke, America’s Bush and his neo-con clan, lost the international sympathy and global support that America and Americans enjoyed hugely in the aftermath of 9/11 when he ordered the invasion of Iraq based on utter, despicable, wanton lies.
As usual you are right and those who present contrary opinion are wrong.
I don’t know if you are living in Europe Tom but you surely espouse the same demagogical rhetorics that US neo-cons do and who thrive on fearmongering!
I repeat, There is not a single line in any of the statements above which are meant to reject Bush’s invasion of Iraq based on a lie that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling WMDs and was related to Al Qaeda which could be construed as defending Islamofanatic terrorists.
And the tactical result of Bush’s war on Iraq?
In one single, massive but hollow stroke, he managed to multiply Islamic fanatics and achieved the unthinkable – bred and produced more potential terrorists beyond imagination.
His own CIA and Senate said this!
Who is fearmongering? All your buzzwords: Christofanatics, Islamophobes, demagogues, etc. Islam will probably dominate the world. After all it is a “religion of peace.” So what is there to fear?
Have no fear!
Filipino OFWs might just outbred the Arab nations and European nations at the rate they are being exported by Gloria.
Bush is paying dearly for his Iraq War policy that the Republicans are now behind in survey as the election approaches. There’s no longer dispute that the Iraq War initiated by these war freaks led by Bush and his allies was wrong from the very beginning. It was all about oil and control of the region.
How can they do that when most of them leave their family behind? Those who are lucky enough to bring their spouse realize how difficult life is and so tend to produce less children. I wonder if the above statement of adb would be taken as insulting by some OFW’s. I wonder if some of them would carry placards saying “BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT OFW’S”.
Tom,
Their prerogative to carry placards if they want to… this is a free continent; you may even lead the pack – I can guarantee you that we don’t have Guantanamo Bay prisons in Europe.
You give OFWs little credit – most OFWs are more intelligent and would hardly find that the notion of perhaps outbreeding the Arabs and the Europeans in the Middle East and in Europe as insulting.
Who knows, they might even think that it is one great, dandy idea…
Talk of Europe turning into ‘Eurabia’ is premature. It is more likely that the United States would turn into ‘Jesusland’ first. The wars that Bush and Israel started has damaged secularism and cosmopolitan culture in Iraq and Lebanon and similar threats of war has strengthened the hand of the fundamentalists in Iran at the expense of that country’s moderates.
Israel has left thousands of unexploded bombs in Lebanon and these were made in USA. How could they blame Iran and Syria for supplying arms to Hezbollah when the US is the one supplying Israel with all military hardware from fighter jets to bombs; not to mention billions of dollars in aids annually? This time, let’s see how US deals with Nokor that’s long been provoking America but the latter doesn’t bite. Why? Well, afraid of China. The US only hurts and attacks who she can bully. On one on one combat, US soldiers are chickens compared to foreign soldiers. They can’t even fight our RP soldiers man to man. The US only takes advantage of their superiority in hi-tech and sophisticated weapons. Other than this, they are a bunch of noisy kids fighting in the streets.
The reality is someone out there wants to blow you up to kingdom come, only because of your faith. e.g. Spain, UK and other European countries.
Test of honesty! Those wants to live under the dictatorship of Talibans or Al Queda, please raise your hand. And those who wish to retain their sovereign rights as human being, liberty and freedom of expression without being humiliated in public, just nudge your head of appreciation. Women, do you believe that you should cover your face in public, and do you think that you should have equal rights with the men? And does the Talibans or Al Queda believes that women should have such rights? And how about the great man honorable President George Bush, does he believe in public beheading?
If you have to mediate peace between the USA, Allies and Al Queda or Talibans, do you think they will come to the table and discuss an everalasting peace. How would you negotiate with the terrorists, Talibans, Al Queda and/or terrorists when they have no country. And who are they that so determine to wipe out on the face of earth all the non-believers, the infidels. Are you an infidel?
Honorable George Bush didn’t ask for this war on terror, it was brought to his doorstep. It was long been planned even before he became President of the United States of America. When the terrorists killed nearly 3000 innocent people on 9/11, they (terrorists) declared war on the United States of America. While the victims were jumping off the buildings, burning, blown to pieces where bodies couldn’t be identified, suffering and the agony of pain can be heard all over the United States and while the country in mourning, the terrorists, Al Queda, Talibans and most of the middle east are celebrating. Were Europe was also celebrating the tragic death of the innocent people of the 9/11? America I believe will finish it, that you can take to the bank.
Toney,
What has Iraq got to do with the Talebans and Al Qaeda?
Did Iraq send those terrorists to do 9/11?
If we were to believe you that the Talebans and Al Qaeda are about to blow up Europe, why on earth did Bush invade Iraq? And for that matter, why is bin Ladden still at large?
There is a bit of confusion here… Iraq is NOT Afhganistan where Al Qaeda thrived nor is Iraq the home of the Talebans.
It was a mistake for the Americans to enter the 2nd WW in Europe as to my opinion, my reason of non-greatful. The European should’ve defended themselves or live under Hitler dictatorial regime. Perhaps, Europe would’ve been better off? Ten of thousands of Americans died in Europe, was it for nothing? The Americans graves in Normandy, do they died for liberty, or do they entered the war un-invited? Was Hitler a reasonable person, or he was determine to conquer all of Europe? Well, he almost did and now we all know the rest of the story. The freedom you’re now enjoying only because someone died so can enjoy it. So, don’t deny the 50 millions citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq the same freedom that you are now enjoying. No one promised, that freedom can be had for nothing! Please, keep that in your mind next time you attack of speak ill of a Great Man Honorable President George Bush of the United States of America.
In spite of all, still majority of undocumented immigrants are dying to enter the United States of America. Are they dying to get to your Europe? Figure this one out?
Anna is right to point out that there is no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. If Bin Laden who killed 3000 innocents is (rightfully) considered a terrorist, what do you call the United States which has killed more than ten times that number in Iraq, a country that did not attack the United States on 9/11? Do the Americans weep for them as well?
The choice between the Taliban/Al Qaeda and George Bush is a false one. Both are religious fanatics who have chosen the path of violence. Jesus was right when he commanded us to love the least of our brethren (e.g. the Muslims) and to turn the other cheek (e.g. as a response to Terrorist attacks).
If it was a mistake for the USA to help Europe in WWII, maybe it was also have been a mistake for the French to help the American Revolutionaries during its war of independence against the British Empire. As for World War II, the United States entered the war not out of the goodness of its heart. It knew that it would be next in the event that Hitler succeeds in taking over Europe. In the interest of historical accuracy, the country that actually did the most to win the war was the Soviet Union (at the cost of millions of its people) where most of the German war effort was concentrated.
In any case, the Americans who fought World War II are different from today’s generation of Americans who murder, rape and torture in Iraq and Guantanamo, in the same way that today’s generation of Germans and Japanese are not the ones who committed the atrocities during World War II. Let not past glories or past sins distract us from present day facts.
Anna:
If you can differentiate the difference between Talibans and Al Queda, you’re much better person than I. as I see it, they’re both terrorists and their only mission in life are to kill innocent people. And they loves to strap children, humand being so they can do their evil deeds. What do you think of that? Would you condone their killings of innocent people, only because they don’t believe on their faith?
I can provide you with justifications for the invasion of Iraq, with 17 UN resolutions, UN Security Councils, unmarked graves in iraq, WMD found in Iraq, Intellgence Reports not only from the United States also from Europe and Middle East. But, you and I know you already made up your mind that the evil is Honorable President George Bush. Right? Nevertheless, do you think that women under Saddam are better off? Do you think the children are better off with Saddam without proper schooling? Progress are slow and dangerous, but at least their is a future to hope for. Would you make an argument with Saddam still in power about the future of women and children about their future? Furthermore, the war in Iraq is about the lives of the Americans to live in peace, if you can believe that to be so. I do, whole heartedly!
cvj:
I heard so much about torture did by the Americans. Please define torture for me or what they did that you called torture, is it cutting someone head? Cutting fingers or any bodily harms? They tortured prisons in Guantanamo? Is that your accusation cvj? How they tortured the prisoners? I would like for you tell me, please.
Toney,
Your historical facts are filled with errors. But let me admit that those monuments you mention were indeed built to honor the greatness of those Americans who came to help Europe long after the war had started in Europe and after much pleading with Americans – these monuments are tributes to American bravery and courage.
However, we must be just and to be just we must be clear: The reason why America joined the war in Europe basically is to save its own butt knowing that Hitler was going for the conquest of the world after it had conquered Europe. So, for America, to fight with non-German Europeans against Hitler was the best course of action. You must remember that the US at that time was vehemently anti joining the war in Europe – they were for appeasement. The Republicans didn’t want to givet their approval to FDR to help Europe against the war with Hitler.
I must also call your attention to the fact that the arguments you present are full of ambiguities and I don’t believe you have the exact facts that relate to how Europe defended itself against Hitler’s Nazi armies. You must not believe that America alone fought the Nazis or that it was they who handed democracy to Europe on a silver platter – Europe had known and practised democracy far longer than US ever did and tens of millions of European lives perished to achieve that.
So, if you don’t know it, I must tell you that while America can lay claim for the great, immense, undescribable help they accorded non-Nazi Europe (and for which Europeans have been very grateful), it is imperative to realize that Europeans did NOT sit idle while WWII raged and so no one, not even YOU, have the moral right to belittle the sacrifices of the Europeans to destroy Nazism.
There were MORE Europeans who died fighting Nazism than there were American deaths in WWII Europe. Soviet Russia alone gave tens of millions of lives to help defeat Hitler and they are Europeans.
That you should put the defeat of Hitler’s Nazi armies as the efforts solely of America is thoroughly belittling brave and courageous Europeans who have suffered and died – not to mention the tens of millions of European civilians – in the same breadth as their American friends in the battlefields of Europe.
It would be horribly unjust to belittle the sacrifices and the lives that TINY but extremely brave and courageous nations like Great Britain, Holland, Belgium, and even half of France, Poland, Chzechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. by putting all the credit on America for defeating Nazism.
Toney, torture is not only physical but also emotional or psychological. There are times mental torture is worse than physical. And I’m sure many of the Magdalo officers in prison are suffering from these.
npongco:
I would be interested if you can tell me the illegal emotional or psychological torture worse than cutting some one head. I’m sure US Congres would also loves to hear it from you. C’mon now Magdalo Officers? Just like comparing apples to oranges, won’t you say so?
Toney,
I think you should re-read what I asked you: “What has Iraq got to do with the Talebans and Al Qaeda?”
Anna:
What historical facts that I mentioned that are filled with errors. Tell me in specific so I can make adjustment on my personal archive. I never meant or put to a claim that Americans did it all single handedly librerated Europe from Hitler. That’s your statement and not mine. The point I’m making that thousands of Americans died in WW2 in Europe. Americans are friend of Europe before and now, but attacking Americans by European friends just somehow beyond me. Americans are always there if any European friends of American are in trouble. But, when Americans need help to go after the Talibans in Afghanistan, where were some of the European Countries?
But Toney,
This is where you err – believing that Europe is NOT helping America against Talebans. Utterly misplaced belief!
Europe IS HELPING AMERICA because NATO which is composed of European nations & Turkey ARE ALL in Afghanistan and have taken control over security and fighting the Talebans in Afghanistan under a British general.
If that is NOT helping Americans, who by the way couldn’t do it on their own in Afghanistan, I don’t know what you mean…
This has been going on for almost TWO years!!!!
Correction: NATO is composed of many European nations, Turkey and of course, the US but NATO is a different military force than a pure-US force.
In that regard, European nations are participating in the fight against terrorists from Afghanistan by combatting the Talebans and Al Qaeda…
Toney,
I suggest you google ‘USA’ and ‘torture’ (or ‘torture USA’). Anyway, here’s a sampler…
Here’s an excerpt from Seymour Hersh’s speech to the ACLU on July 8 2004 revealing more about the goings on at Abu Ghraib:
“…what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children, in cases that have been [video] recorded, the boys were sodomized, with the cameras rolling, and the worst above all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking…”
Here’s a report from Guantanamo (from ericmargolis.com):
“According to report just leaked to the `NY Times,’ the Swiss-based International Red Cross has accused the Bush Administration for a second time of employing systematic, medically supervised torture against suspects at its Devil’s Island at Guantanamo, and at US-run prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan…Many tortures perfected by the Cheka ( Soviet secret police), notably beating, freezing, sensory disorientation, and sleep deprivation, are now routinely being used by US interrogators on Muslim suspects.”
The Americans have also outsourced torture in a practice known as ‘rendition’:
“Newsday reports that Vincent Cannistraro, a former intelligence official, told reporters that, “Better intelligence has come from a senior al Qaeda detainee who had been held in the U.S. base at Guantanamo, Cuba, and was ‘rendered to Egypt after refusing to cooperate. ‘They promptly tore his fingernails out and he started to tell things.'” (Newsday, February 6, 2003)”
Meanwhile, back home, George W. Bush has recently convinced the US Congress to pass a law on treatment of detainees which the New York Times criticized for having the following features:
“Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.”
“The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published.”
“Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.”
“Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.”
“Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.”
BTW, cutting off someone’s head is technically ‘murder’ not ‘torture’. The USA is also guilty of that, although it uses laser guided bombs instead of swords favored by its enemies.
Anna:
You’ll get the same answer from me since I’m just a lowly ranking citizen that believes on my right to exist without fear. Like I said to you before, I couldn’t tell the difference from Talibans to Al Queda if both are in front of me. All I know of their mission are the same to kill those that don’t believe on their faith. And I don’t, so that make me their enemies. Can you tell the difference? Talibans ruled Afghanistan before, basically fighting in the mountain of Afghanistan and Pakistan. I saw on some report that the Talibans used to humiliate women in public and shoot people in public. Is that right Anna? Al Queda at one time trained in Afghanistan until they got kicked out. Both have the same cause, that is, to kill infidels. My belief, all the different factions are now congregating in Iraq to salvage whatever remain to their power.
What do you think would happen if the USA and UK would leave Iraq? I would like to hear your version of what’s going to happen. Thanks
Anna:
I’ll give you Turkey. How about Belgium and France in particular?
cvj:
ACLU?? Amigos you can do better. Do you know who’re the ACLU. They would love to get the head of a great man President Bush. ACLU think that god should never be mention in any classroom or in any public buildings in America. How you like that?
Toney,
I believe none of us would be able to tell outright if one was an Afghan Taleban or an Afghan Northern Alliance. They are all Afghans
However, we do know is that Al Qaeda is a grouping of terrorists under the leadership of a Saudi Arabian named Osama bin Laden – these men banding together are primary Islamic fundamentalists, fanatics if you like, who came from various Islam-based nations that included Moslems from the Philippine province of Mindanao.
If your question is how to identify a Pakistani Al Qaeda operative from a Filipino Al Qaeda operative, I really can’t help you. I suppose the features should make it easy to identify them.
As to how to identify Talebans from Al Qaeda operatives, the same thing goes. So much so, why should we put all Islamists IN THE SAME BASKET, and treat the IRAQIS as AL QAEDA operatives or TALEBANS if WE CANNOT PROPERLY IDENTIFY WHICH IS WHICH?
Don’t you think it such inability to identify which is which would only provide for a flawed tactic to attack Al Qaeda operatives or the Talebans by invading Iraq?
Toney,
You are not making sense here:
“Anna:
“I’ll give you Turkey. How about Belgium and France in particular?”
What do you mean?
By the way, out of curiosity, could you tell me if you are Chinese?
cvj:
What happened in Abu Ghraib couldn’t be compared to hazing in many Colleges. Abu Ghraib is a minor league, but I concede it shoudn’t happened. But like I said, the ugliness of war, and Abu Ghraib was a mistake. But, would you say the humiliation and tortured of kidnapped that we saw on tv can you make a comparison to Abu Ghraib?
Toney, you seem to be provoking me into a serious discussion about torture. Some of your comments are even torturing some readers. Get it? About these poor Iraqi prisoners, they sure suffered both physical and pscychological torture. As for beheading, do you know that sometimes this is an easier and fastest death rather than to die slowly?
Abu Ghraib a minor league? What do you mean by minor league?
Military caught in the act of blatant torture which is AGAINST the Geneva Convention is what…, a minor league? What on earth do you mean?
Anna:
Sorry you didn’t get it. You said, Turkey was part of Nato and all in Afghanistan. Ain’t what you said, so I’ll give you Turkey underr british command. I can say more about Turkey participation when it was really needed by the US Troops and Turkey failed. And for Belgium and France in particular, when the US went to Iraq where were they?
I’m blue blooded Pilipino.
Toney, Seymour Hersh is a reporter. He is not from the ACLU, he just made a speech to the ACLU. What do you mean by minor league? You consider the sodomizing of boys at Abu Ghraib minor league? What about the outsourcing of torture to Egypt? Does that absolve the Americans who sent the detainee over there? Also, if you are the invading country, you cannot just blame the ‘ugliness of war’ and leave it at that. If the USA did not invade, then all this ugliness would not have happened in the first place. As the occupying power, the United States is responsible for peace and order as well as the safety of the people it has occupied.
I noticed your above comment which indicates ‘WMD found in Iraq’. Unless you are talking about the uranium-tipped shells coming from American tanks, that’s inaccurate. David Kay, who was commissioned by the United States (after the fall of Saddam) to investigate the existence of WMD in Iraq said in a testimony to the US Senate:
“It turns out that we were all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing.”
Whoever told you that they found WMD in Iraq is wrong. If you also remember the run-up to the war, although all the intelligence services from the Western countries believed that Saddam had a WMD stockpile, France and Germany insisted on completing the inspection of Hans Blix. The United States and Britain, however, railroaded the invasion. A lot of lives would have been spared a lot of grief if they had just waited.
For the record, i agree with the ACLU that ‘God’ should never be mentioned in public buildings in America. Separation of Church and State and all that…You would not want the USA to become a theocracy just like Iran.
Anna:
Were you ever part or participated in humiliation performances from practical jokes by college fraternity? If you do, you would understand what I meant by Abu Ghraib as minor league in comparison to hazing in persecuting and harassing new kids in town. What do you think? Like I said, it shouldn’t happened the troops should’ve been more sensitive. Then, what do you expect, war is ugly.
But Toney, you must remember that France did NOT support the invasion of IRAQ because the UN inspectors HAD NOT FINISHED their inspection of the purported, pretexted existence of stockpiling of WMDs when Bush adamantly stated HE WOULD INVADE Iraq even when he (Bush) knew that there were NO weapons of mass destruction in Iraq nor was Saddam Hussein responsisble for 9/11, so WHY would France help America invade a nation that it did NOT believe was responsible for 9/11?
Same with Belgium!
Toney, I suggest, you read the leaked Downing Street Memoes by UK’s The Times and you will LEARN MORE about the lies that were propagated for the invasion of Iraq.
If you don’t believe them because The Times journalist that revealed them is British, then read and search the TIME (US magazine) report about how the 9/11 intelligence information had reached America (and Bush) before 9/11 even happened but which Bush and his friends refused to believe…and which today PROVED to be right as declared no less by the American CIA and confirmed by the US Senate!!!!!
War was made VERY VERY ugly when the US invaded a nation THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO with 9/11!
cvj,
I totally agree with you, “For the record, i agree with the ACLU that ‘God’ should never be mentioned in public buildings in America. Separation of Church and State and all that…You would not want the USA to become a theocracy just like Iran. “
You guys, all you want is to prosecute the Americans for the mistake of the few. But, look at the big picture instead, the country is fighting a war on terror, their very survival of their right to live in peace, faith of their choosing and not being dictated by terrorists. Their enemies are determine to kill everyone of them, you can take that to the bank.
We all make mistake. Hitler and Tojo made a mistake of trying to conquer the world, and they met their fate. Now, we got faceless terrorists that can’t be reasoned with, and to do nothing is not an option.
Anna:
Don’t forget how America was founded, by those prosecuted in England because of their faith. They came to the new world and established their religion without being prosecuted which the very beginning of USA – that all men are created equal, and women got in to the picture. Remember?
What are you talking about exactly Toney?
Are you equating the Iraqis with the Talebans and the Al-Qaeda terrorists and say that Iraqis are terrorists in the same breadth as the Talebans and Al Qaeda operatives who attacked the US on 9/11?
Did you mean that because you and I cannot identify Iraqis from Al Qaeda operatives or from Talebans in Afghanistan, we should PUT IRAQ with the Talebans and Al Qaeda operatives IN THE SAME BASKET and treat all of IRAQ as terrorists and guilty of 9/11?
If you cannot identify terrorists from non-terrorists, does that give anyone the right to invade a nation and lump all Islamists in the same terrorist category?
Anna:
You may call it lies about the invasion of Iraq, but I know the need to rid of evils that wants nothing better but to kill you when you least expected it. And 9/11 was a least expected, who would think that would happen? Not in a million year. So, the Americans are on the offensive. The giant was awaken, borrowed from Admiral Yamashita.
Toney, your statement bothers me…you say, “America was founded by those prosecuted in England because of their faith” but on that same premise why do you think America now should opt for the right to persecute those who don’t have a similar faith as theirs?
We must differentiate those who are moderate Islamists from Islamic fundamentalists from whom potential terrorists may come. In the same manner that in so doing, we must be careful not to become Christian fundamentalists either, lest we suffer the same fate the May Flower people suffered when they were persecuted in England.
Anna:
Do you know the Talibans when I mention Talibans and also when I said Al Queda? I’m not equating them to Iraquis at all as the generalization, that’s the summation you’re making. Lump all islamist are your words. I’m quite careful how I structure my responses not to generalize the innocents.
Toney, you say “You may call it lies about the invasion of Iraq, but I know the need to rid of evils that wants nothing better but to kill you when you least expected it.”
Are you saying that all Iraqis are evil?
Toney, that’s why I am asking you to clarify… in order to avoid any misunderstanding as to what you really mean.
This exchanges has been fruitful to me personally, and the pleasure is mine. And many thanks to all of you, ’till the next time. I’m hungry I’ve not eaten yet and save your thoughts for the next time. I”l be back again. You all take care. Toney.
Bon appetit Toney!
Pagtulung-tulungan ka ba naman, e di gugutumin ka nga, Toney. Ang lakas talaga ng anti-USA sentiment dito. I have yet to read any posting about abuses ng mga Muslim/Arab radicals against Israel, USA, England, Spain, even their their own people in Iraq or Afghanistan. Puro abuse ng mga Kano ang inirireklamo. Wala naman yatang nagsasabing santo ang USA. Pero pag tumulong ang USA (whether government or private non-profit groups) sa mga nasalanta ng landslide, bagyo, lindol, tsunami, ni hindi makuhang magpasalamat ng iba dito. Talagang public enemy number one ang USA. Maybe hindi ang buong USA, maybe in particular si Bush. Di bale, malapit na ring matapos ang kanyang term. Tutal hanggang dalawang terms lang ang US president, at walang pag-asang maging parliamentary ang US government. Sa dami ng kalaban ng USA lalo na kung ihahambing sa mga defenders/sympathizers ng “religion of peace,” talagang may tulog ang evil USA. Matutupad na rin ang minimithi ng karamihan dito. Amg tanong lang, saan kaya gugustuhing mag-immigrate nating mga Pinoy? Pag natalo na ang USA, malamang hindi malayong kasunod din ang England, Canada, Australia at mga kaanib? Oh there’s always Saudi, Iran, Japan (kaya lang meron ding hinding-hindi mo mapapapunta sa Japan) and some parts of Europe at mga kaalyado nila. Of course hindi na kailangang mangibang-bayan ng mga star players dito dahil independently wealthy na sila. Oo nga din pala, pag nanaig na ang Islam, wala nang problema sa so-called “separation of church and state.” Aba e talagang piyesta ang iba dito pag nagkataon.
Tom, I hope you’re not a Filipino Jew.
Anna, CVJ,
Being anti-Bush is actually not being anti-US as the survey in the US now shows, for common sense dictates that what Bush did in Iraq and even Afghanistan is massacre! I’m glad that, at least, the Americans are now finding out the truth about the lies fed them by the idiot who thinks it is his prerogative to decide on the fate of mankind!
You’re right, Anna, the invasion of Iraq is a gross violation of the Geneva Convention, and shame on these Christians, who do not seem to realize that they are not being different from the Islam Fundamentalists they want to send to hell pronto!
It actually boils down to ignorance, even ignorance of the fact that the Moslems have more respect for Christ, whom they consider as a great prophet born of the Virgin, than what the Christians are willing to give to Mohammed. As the old adage says, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
Yup, Bush, Blair, et al had actually even violated what they call “rules of engagement,” and they should be held legally responsible for the massacre of innocent Iraqis who were made to pay for a crime they did not commit; as many as 250,000 dead Iraqis against the 2741 US military casualties, a lot many of whom in fact are not even victims of Iraqi resistance but faulty US military maneuvers and operations.
250,000 Iraqis killed for a lie! And yes, for the greed for Iraqi oil!
In fact, one of the first casualties was a member of our church whose helicopter just suddenly somersaulted and plunged to earth somewhere in Kuwait just before the US troops with those embedded journalists moved into Iraq. Another was run over by a humvee while he was taking a nap! Tragic, eh?
So far, there are only 2 or 3 members of the military beheaded by the insurgents, who are doing similar resistance in fact as those done in previous wars that are even glorified in movies. So, why should these Iraqis not have the right to go underground to fight for their country and people?
np: Ipagpalagay natin na Judio ako, what are you going to do about it? Kinamumuhian mo rin ba ang mga Judio gaya ng mga Hapon?
Tom, galing din naman sa mga Amerikano ang karamihan ng mga nababasa ko tungkol sa mga katiwaliang nangyayari sa Iraq, Guantanamo at iba pang lugar. Siguro naman hindi sila ka-alyado ng Al Qaeda o ni Saddam. Tama si Yuko, karamihan ng mga bagay-bagay na pinupuna sa America ngayon ay kagagawan ni Bush. Dahil sa kaniya, lumipas na ang kapanahunan kung kailan tinitingala ng karamihan sa mundo ang Estados Unidos.
cvj: Agree ako sa first two sentences mo. Meron ka rin ba namang nababasa na critical sa mga Muslim radicals o puro laban sa US lang? Karapatan ng kahit sino dito na isulat kung ano ang gusto nila. Nagtataka lang ako kung bakit halos puro kontra US/Bush/Christians lang ang lumalabas from some of you. Kaya nga I almost wish manalo ang radical Muslims at ma-conquer ng Islam ang buong mundo. Tutal it seems to me yan ang gusto ng iba dito. Ano kaya ang mangyayari?
Meron nang nagsabi dito sa forum once, kung hindi na tinitingala ng karamihan sa mundo ang US (and I agree with that statement), bakit kaya marami pa ring gustong mag-immigrate sa USA? OF course, marami ding gustong lumipat sa Canada, Australia, at ibang lugar. Pero bakit nga kaya nagsisiksikan sa USA? Bakit hindi magdagsaan sa Japan o Brussels?
Tom that is your first mistake. There is no relationship between the three things you combined US – Bush – Christianity at ang kalaban ay muslim. Ang aming pinaguusapan ay ang kapalpakan lang ni Bush.
Una kakampi nu Bush ang Pakistan/Saudi Arabia/Kawait/Arab Emirates at marami pang ibang muslim. Pero ang Saudi at Pakistani ang pinakamaraming terrorist na suportado pera at mismo naghijack sa 9/11.
US kalaban ang Pakistan at Saudi, Pero Bush magkakame sa Pakistan at Saudi. Ito ay, kapalpakan na malaki.
Ang nag hijack ng 9/11 ay ang mga TAliban/Alquaida/Bin Laden. Itong grupo na ito ay hindi pinagaabalahan ni Bush, instead nagungulangot sila sa Iraq.
Again US kalaban ang TAliban/Alquaida/Bin Laden, Pero Bush walang ginagawa laban sa TAliban/Alquaida/Bin Laden. Ito nanaman, kapalpakan na malaki.
Kaylan lang nasa news ang Gobyerno ni Bush ay sumusuko na sila Taliban dahil pinapayagan na ng Gobyernong Bush ang pananatili ang Taliban sa Gobyerno ng Afganistan:
U.S. Senate majority leader calls for efforts to bring Taliban into Afghan government
The Associated Press
MONDAY, OCTOBER 2, 2006
QALAT, Afghanistan U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said Monday that the Afghan guerrilla war can never be won militarily and called for efforts to bring the Taliban and their supporters into the Afghan government.
The Tennessee Republican said he had learned from briefings that Taliban fighters were too numerous and had too much popular support to be defeated by military means.
“You need to bring them into a more transparent type of government,” Frist said during a brief visit to a U.S. and Romanian military base in the southern Taliban stronghold of Qalat. “And if that’s accomplished we’ll be successful.” …
Taliban/Alquada/Bin Laden ay Muslim, Pero hindi lahat ng muslim ay Taliban/Alquada/Bin Laden. So hindi kalaban ng US ang Muslim. Naduling lang si Bush kaya nakapunta siya sa Iraq. Nanaman, kapalpakan.
Tom, tulad ng marami sa ating kababayan, madami akong kamag-anak (kasama na rin dito ang anak ko) na nakatira sa USA. Sino ba naman ang una mong pupunahin kung hindi ang mas malapit sa iyo? Hayaan natin punahin ng mga Muslim ang kapwa nila at sila ang mas nakakaalam kung paano makitungo sa isa’t-isa. Dapat magka-‘dialogue’ ang America sa mga moderate Muslims kung paano harapin ang mga ‘extremists’ at hindi lang basta sumusugod sa away na madami tuloy iba ang nadadamay.
Taas ang sombrero ko sa inyo. Malinaw na hindi ako kakampi ni Jun, pero minsan almost agree ako sa kanya–sa kabila ng galing ninyo (kasama ng opposition), wala pa rin kayong magawa para mapatalsik si GMA. For the record, agree ako sa kagustuhan ninyong yan na patalsikin si GMA. Good luck na lang sa inyo. Paghusayan din ninyo ang attempt ninyo na talunin ang USA or si Bush in particular.
cvj: O sige na nga, una mong pinuna ang USA. Kailan mo naman kaya pupunahin ang mga radical Islamists?
O ako naman, pupunahin ko ang USA. Sa palagay ko mali ang pagkakapasok sa Iraq at dapat iwanan na. Sa palagay ko rin, hindi dapat ginawa ng mga sundalong USA yung mga pang-aabuso kung sino man ang inabuso nila. Sasabihin ko na rin na mali si Bush sa pagtitiwala sa “intelligence reports” na binasehan niya ng decision to go to war in Iraq (the same reports na nakita ng mga Democrats). Malinaw ba na pinupuna ko si Bush? Kayo, kailan ninyo pupunahin ang mga radical Islamists?
Tom,
Re your “Bakit hindi magdagsaan sa Japan o Brussels?”
As Yuko said, “little knowledge is dangerous…”
You will find that nag-dadagsaan ang mga foreigners sa Brussels, from all continents all over the world – alam mo ba na ang population ng Brussels is almost 35% composed of foreign expats with their families residing here? Kung hindi dagsaan ito – maliit lang ang Brussels – I don’t know what is?
Brussels happens to be the capital of EU and because of its importance, not only foreign embassy staffs (some countries are represented by 2, 3 ambassadors) are present in this tiny surface, their industry delegates and families are PRESENT here – dagsaan talaga that real estate properties have skyrocketed in a couple of years! There are more US industry delegates here present than perhaps in London or Paris so, dagsaan talaga!
(Kaya nga pati si Gloria na wala naman dapat gawin dito ay dumagsa dito para lang maisingit iyong sarili niya – sabi nga ni Ambassador Ortega, swerte dahil mabait ang EU president na tinangap na mag meet kay Gloria at “short notice!”)
Nung “nainsulto” sila sa comment ng Pope, may pumalag ba sa inyo dahil may Muslim na pumatay dun sa isang madre sa Somalia na walang ibang ginawa kundi magsilbi sa mga locals? May nag-comment ba sa inyo na mali yung pagbabanta ng mga radical Muslims na pugutan ng ulo ang Pope? Nung kinidnap ng mga kalaban ng Israel ang dalawang sundalo na kung bakit binomba ng Israel ang Lebanon, may kumibo ba sa inyo? Pag may suicide bombers na pumapatay ng mga innocent civilians sa Tel Aviv, may pumipiyok ba sa inyo? Yung isang French teacher (Robert Redeker) na may death threats ang mga radical Muslims dahil sa sinulat niya sa isang French newspaper sa mismong France na critical sa kanila, may umangal ba sa inyo? Paano ko namang hindi aakalain na ang simpatiya ninyo ay kontra Bush/USA at para sa mga radical Muslims? Isa pa nasaan ang sinasabi ninyong mga moderate Muslims? Kailan ninyo sila narining na kinondena ang 9/11? Totoo maraming moderates, pero nasaan? Bakit tamimi sila? Kaya yung sinabi ni cvj na hayaan ang mga Muslim na punahin ang kapwa nila, nasaan?
Allow me to re-stress some of the points stated here:
While some may equate the anti-Bush sentiment here to anti-American feeling, I believe Yuko and cvj are right – first, the sentiment is really anti-Bush and his neo-con cronies and is not a general feeling of being anti-American (all of us it seems have members of families residing in the US, relatives and friends and they are Americans); second, we can easily criticise those who have similar culture to ours (being Christians) because we can discuss the issues with more ease…
Tom,
Re: “Nung “nainsulto” sila sa comment ng Pope, may pumalag ba sa inyo dahil may Muslim na pumatay dun sa isang madre sa Somalia na walang ibang ginawa kundi magsilbi sa mga locals? May nag-comment ba sa inyo na mali yung pagbabanta ng mga radical Muslims na pugutan ng ulo ang Pope?”
How do you know I didn’t “pumalag”? Did you comment about those yourself?
These issues were not discussed in Ellen’s blog but they were discussed in other weblogs in Europe and certainly, I for one, “pumalag” about these not only on the web but also de vive voix here in Brussels too!
adb: Sige na nga, nagdadagsaan diyan sa Brussels. Big deal! Yun lang illegals sa USA mas marami pa sa population ng buong Belgium. Totoo yang kasabihan about little knowledge. Of course hindi naga-a-apply sa inyo ni Yuko yan dahil lahat ng subjects na tinouch ninyo, expert kayo. with complete knowledge at your fingertips.
Re: “Pagtulung-tulungan ka ba naman, e di gugutumin ka nga, Toney. ”
There’s been only an exchange of thoughts here and not of fire…
Just imagine how those poor Iraqi civilians – old people, women and children whose lives are being choked by war and are starving to death dahil PINAGTULUNGAN GIYERAHIN!
Eh Tony,
Of course, tama ka siguro, iyong illegals sa US mas marami kesa sa population ng Belgium – paano mo naman ikukumpara iyan e napakaliit lang ng belgium compared mo sa US…
E ito na nga, siksikan na ang mga tao dito dahil din sa illegals na ang gobyerno dito ay kailangan magtayo ng mga buildings for additional housing… alam mo ba that in 2 hours by car you can cross Belgium from end to end?
Even then 35% of the Brussels population is already EXPAT population…
Ooops sorry, Tom pala!
Also for info, I am not saying these things because I am totally enamoured of Brussels – my family and I are here for professional reasons and we will be here until we get posted elsewhere – expatriated again, so don’t think I am defending Belgium – just explaining a few things about the country.
Hats off na naman at pumalag ka sa ibang forum. I never said na hindi ka pumalag? Tanong yung sa akin. O sige ilimit na lang natin sa current thread. Malinaw na binabatikos mo ang mga tinatawag mong Christianofanatics at Islamophobes. Kahit minsan dito (again sa current thread) hindi mo binatikos ang radical Islam adherents for any of their crimes against others. Possible exception of your post “When Christianofanatics are satisfied that evil Islamofanatics have been eradicated . . .” which I think anyway does not mean that you are being critical of Islamofanatics. On the other hand, it’s very plain to me, and perhaps to others, that you despise these “Christianofanatics.” Of course I wouldn’t know kung pumalag ka sa ibang forum or not. I don’t read ALL possible fora where you might post. Still I believe each one will post what he/she wants to and nobody can force anyone else to post what they don’t believe, not even Ellen, nor would she. Kung talagang sa pananaw ninyo ay puro si Bush ang dapat sisihin at walang kahit anong kasalanan ang mga radical Islamists, karapatan ninyo yan.
Tom,
” Of course hindi naga-a-apply sa inyo ni Yuko yan dahil lahat ng subjects na tinouch ninyo, expert kayo.”
Sarcasm is really NOT necessary – I believe I only speak on things I know and if I led you to believe that I speak on everything because I’m an expert on everything then, my sincere apologies to you as it is clearly not my intention since I accept that I am no expert in many things, and less so, on everything.
That domain is reserved for many others but not for me.
I did make brief, passing anodine remarks on many threads in Ellen’s blog because there are subjects I’m not comfortable with eg, in the very recent thread on the Ralston affair…
Anna,
Simple lang ang explanation ko sa pamangkin ko. I told him that what the Americans would do in Iraq was trespass, rob them of their wealth and rape their women. I did not expect then that the horny US soldiers of this generation will go there to rape also young boys, not just young girls! That’s the extent of their perversion as a matter of fact! Kakadiri!
Now, at least, he knows that Bush told the American a big fat lie! The Americans themselves should do something to have Bush be made legally answerable for the crimes against humanity he has committed especially in Iraq that a lot many countries now would not want to get involved in if they want the peoples of the world to respect and regard Americans as heroes as in WWII again. Otherwise, the image of the “Ugly American” will stick forever.
Frankly, Anna, I abide by this admonition from a leader of our church, a patriotic American: What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? Our assignment is affirmative: to forsake the things of the world as ends in themselves; to leave off idolatry and press forward in faith; to carry the gospel to our enemies, that they might no longer be our enemies.
We must leave off the worship of modern-day idols and a reliance on the “arm of flesh,” for the Lord has said to all the world in our day, “I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” (D&C 64:24.)
BTW, North Korea’s Kim has warned Bush a lot of times about firing nukes toward the US, how come, there are none of the warnings aired on radios and TVs prior to the attack on Iraq?
I was in fact in the US joining the protests against the planned attack on Iraq, when I heard the announcement on the radio. So, off my mother and I went to Costco to buy those emergency paraphernalias in case of a gas bomb attack, but by the time we got there, ubos na ang mga delata! Wha we did not know was that the Iraqis could not even afford to buy a plane to give the Americans the dogfight that they were looking for like the kind of resistance the US acers got from the Japanese Kamikazes of WWII! The reason: Binabalasubas ni Kofi Anan ang food for oil with Sadam!!!
And I thought, Migosh, ang galing talagang mag-brainwash! At least, my mother, a die-hard Republican, just kept her peace when I criticized Bush! Ang sabi lang niya, “I hope you are not supporting the Democrats!”
Thanks for the civil way we have been debating here, adb, cvj, et al. Nothing personal. In any case, I apologize for anything I posted that anyone might perceive as ad hominem.
Tom,
“Malinaw na binabatikos mo ang mga tinatawag mong Christianofanatics at Islamophobes. Kahit minsan dito (again sa current thread) hindi mo binatikos ang radical Islam adherents for any of their crimes against others.”
Firstly, I think, you will find that many of you have done that with already great effect. Secondly, you will of course not know, hence I told you that I engage in other fora on questions that involve Islamic fanaticism. But you yourself haven’t answered my question.
Thirdly, the thrust of the thread as I saw it was about the war on Iraq by Bush and therefore, I focused on that because the thread called for it – it may have glided into Talebans and Al Qaeda but the main thrust of the discussion was the IRAQ war. Also, let’s be quite frank about this, you will find that I spoke about the Christianofanatics because my basic reaction was directed against a neo-con propaganda that was posted here by Bentong and my comments were geared towards that.
Lastly, for the record, I am critical of any FANATICISM – Christian, Islam, etc. I despise terrorists in general (even the Irish terrorists, Basque terrorists, Corsican terrorists, ultra-right wing terrorists, etc.) and I do not believe that Islamic terrorists should be yielded an inch – that’s why I am fully supportive of the NATO battle against the terrorists among the Talebans and the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan or wherever they may be!
Tom, noong nakaraang buwan na nagalit ang mga Muslims sa sinabi ng Pope, ito ang sinabi ko sa weblog ni mlq3:
“He may be clumsy in expressing his views (and a bit disingeneous), but I respect the Pope for trying to open a frank exchange across faith lines. If they don’t want their faith to be seen as condoning violence, the adherents of Islam should stop machine-gunning Churches everytime their sensibilities get offended. Quoting Manuel II Paleologus may have been a bad idea…but the Pope has apologized so hopefully this can be turned into an opportunity for further discussion. On the other side of the fence, the former Iranian President Khatami has called for a similar dialogue.”
So pinupuna ko din sila paminsan-minsan.
To anna de brux:
“So, don’t go around preaching a totally false or way off idea that isn’t mine”
Preaching? Hey that post was meant solely for you. And you certainly did not come across way that when you wrote that post I commented on. Anyway, you have clarified your position.
“I’ve spent more than half my life and most of my professional life within the military and para-military environment abroad and in Pinas to know what I’m talking about”
Really? You know what you’re talking about? OK, I’ll take your word for it. Lots of people are claiming the same thing, and they see things differently from you!
“And even the graduates of the prestigious Sandhurst too!”
those bloody Sandhurst grads!
Tom, there are many other things to worry about than the islamic fundamentalist, like North Korea. One solution for this fundametalist is cvj’s: “Dapat magka-’dialogue’ ang America sa mga moderate Muslims kung paano harapin ang mga ‘extremists’ at hindi lang basta sumusugod sa away na madami tuloy iba ang nadadamay.” Other thing, make an apology to the iraq and muslim community about the failures that Bush has done to all them. What obout giving iraq back their own autonomy? What about troops back 140,000 troops to defend the border? I know these are wishful thinking, at least do something else that works. Because right now, there is a strong anger towards the US and islamic fundamentalism is rapidly growing. Strong anger because, if I’m not even a Muslim and know Bush is a fiasco, what more do the real muslim think about him and his country America.
Anthony Scalia,
“Really? You know what you’re talking about? OK, I’ll take your word for it. Lots of people are claiming the same thing, and they see things differently from you!”
And of course, you will be one of those claiming the same thing, I suppose…If you ever say so, I will return the compliment by saying I’ll also take your word for it.
Josephs, may I add that based on WWII Marshall Plans for Germany, we could safely say that pouring wealth and needed economic developments into say, “backward” (per Western standards) social structures as in Afghanistan and in Palestine, may help arrest the tide of terrorism.
The NATO Secretary General and the SACEUR Commander are trying to do that today by inviting western industries to go to Afghanistan and to help by investing in Afghanistan. Before the resurgence of the current violence clashes in Afghanistan, the SACEUR chief already started doing that already.
It is one way to arrest the moderates from becoming radical and from whose ranks terrorists are born.
To anna de brux:
“And of course, you will be one of those claiming the same thing, I suppose…If you ever say so, I will return the compliment by saying I’ll also take your word for it.”
And the cycle continues…
CVJ,
Bush talk to the Moslems? No dice! This guy is even prejudiced against the UN! A month ago, this guy went to Utah and Talked to leaders of our church. I don’t know if his purpose was to tell our church leaders not to work with the Moslems in doing those charities for Moslems, etc. in distress as the victims of the Tsunami in Indonesia or the earthquake in Pakistan. Instead, I think he was told to pray and be honest to himself.
As for the Filipino medic who is the subject of this loop, I understand he confessed as a plea bargain because he and his fellow soldiers can get a death penalty for what they did. Nothing heroic apparently!
Yuko,
Your news made me laugh loud: ” Instead, I think he was told to pray and be honest to himself.”
Hahahahahah!
Yuko,
Your news made me laugh loud: ” Instead, I think he (Bush) was told to pray and be honest to himself.”
Hahahahahah!
Sorry I’ve to leave the forum in a very short notice. But, when one is hungry, nothing much matter. Anyway, busog na and much re-energize.
Tom, you’re a Gentleman and Scholar for taking up the slack. You and I know it’s not about Saddam, Talibans, Al Queda, or the terrorists, but only to attack an Honorable Great Man President George. I guess, it comes with the territory of being a powerful person on this face of earth. He’s a great man and cast a big shadow and his resolved is unswayed. It’s only my hope that he stays the course, since the terrorist will not stop ’till all infidels are converted to their way of thinking.
But, the global danger is not in Iraq. The attention is now turn to North Korea. Reported, North Korea may have just tested Nuke underground. Now, lets wait and see what countries will be in the forefront of this clear and present danger. Keep in mind, there are fanatics and dangerous people out there wiil not stop at nothing but to kill Americans.
It beg the question, should North Korea be allowed to have a nuke?
I guess to soldiers beheaded as I read commented are only two in numbers if we’ve to make a proportion to millions of Jews that took a shower in gas chambers. And the horror of Pilipino babies bayoneted in the air like balls, the death march during WW2 by Japanese. But again thats long time ago, I guess we can move on and continue the healing. Jewish never forget, it keep bringing the atrocities of the WW2 of what happen to their people. In contrast, Pilipinos are forgiving people, I suppose or just desperate to find where the next meal will come from, matter not where they get it from, how, doesn’t matter.
Anothe case of pot calling kettle black – such hyporicy, painting with a wide brush, “Pamangkin ko…what the Americans would do in Iraq trespas. rob of their wealth and rape their women.” Sounded from the horror gamebooks of the Empire of Japan when they invaded Philippines, treated Pilipinos as animals, kill the people without regards nor emotion, stole the Philippines wealth, raped the women adn they think with the money all will be forgotten.
If I’ve my way I will build a “monument of atrocities” dedicated to those that died in violent death cause by the Japanese that can be seen from far away in Japan, just to keep reminding them of the scars they left in the Philippines. No amount of money that Japan has that will repay to what they did to my country -Philippines. It can’t be repaid, ever. Japan took so much and robbed them of their dignity and pride. And still going on.
Don’t confine your prejudice to Iraq, and look around you.
Tsunami in Indonesia? Who were there that gave billions and assistance to the needy that desperately need help? The Americans with their generosity. Remember that when someone said Tsunami.
It never ceases to amaze me of such virtues that one does not posses – act hypocrisy. “American as heroes in WWWII again. Otherwise, the image of the “Ugly Americans will stick forever.” Such ungreatful, this is the thank the Americans received after the December 7, 1941. Ugly Americans, how about cowardly sneaky attacked by the Kamikaze pilots of Japan? How ugly that can get? We can compare notes of atrocities and improvement of the past and see who did more globally to advance to better quality of life that affected the lives of many people in a positive way.
When Americans sneezes, mostly others will catch cold.
Toney,
Re: “It beg the question, should North Korea be allowed to have a nuke?”
What do you mean ALLOW them to HAVE a nuke? But they already POSSESS the nuke!
Lastly, get your laugh in now, make fun of the great man, because he’ll get his last laugh. Ooops take that back, he’s not that type of a great man. He’s too much of a Gentleman to brag of his positive accomplishments and contributions in spreading LIBERTY to the rest of the world. Especially when others would rather support the spread of other faith by the swords.
Anna, Uniffors said their site will be back very soon. Inaayos na. They forgot to renew contract.
Thanks, Ellen.
Anna,
His picture with the leaders of our church was in all newspapers in SLC, Utah last month. He was the one who asked for an audience with them not vice-versa, obviously he wanted to make sure that UT will remain supporting him.
As you know, UT is dominantly Republican although a lot many of my friends there are turning the other way because of this idiot! Parang malapit na ring maging Alzheimer! I am actually in a forum with anti-Bush Utahns.
“Parang malapit na ring maging Alzheimer!”
Hahahahah!
To you Amboys or Amgirls or Amgays whatever you call yourselves, here’s what I got to say about America, the Americans…specifically the American soldiers.
Nothing wrong with boosting the morale of these US soldiers. Even though many joined the services for different reasons like free education and benefits, I believe there are many who truly love the nation. But from decent young kids, many turned into monsters out there in the battlefields. This is especially true when these GIs are assigned overseas. Not that they have lost their inhibition, they reflect the kind of leadership and government the US has for centuries. Their bullying tactics have been part and parcel of their relationship with other countries particularly the poor third world nations.
Whoever says the GIs’ abuse of enemies and prisoners are isolated cases should review history. Looking back, these GIs have been notorious when they landed and occupied foreign territories. Let’s not talk about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq. After long cover up, the incident or incidents finally came out mainly due to media monitoring. Thanks these culprits are now being charged and even convicted. But, these are just reported cases. What about the many other unreported or those that are still being covered up. I recall one incident when US jets bombed a civilian camp killing many children and women. These killers explained they thought those were Iraqi insurgents. What a SOB! The same reason was given during the Korean War when a group of civilians were fired and killed by the GIs just because of suspecting a communist spy among the group. And don’t forget the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam where hundreds of Vietnamese civilians were killed. In one conference narrated by one former GI, he was in tears and in trembling voice narrated how his comrades raped a Vietnamese woman. Cut her vagina waist up and opened the her body; then left her on the street. Wasn’t this a barbaric act? This is the meaning of torture you were asking, Toney. Let’s not even go far…let’s turn to our own RP history. You know about the Balangiga massacre in Samar where all Filipinos fro children above were ordered killed by the US General. And what tirggered the Fil-Am War? A GI shot and killed a young Filipino boy mistaken for a wild pig or monkey. In disgust on his colleagues atrocities against the Filipinos, one US Black soldier who belonged to then so called “Buffalo Soldiers” deserted and went over to the Filipino side. He helped trained the Filipinos fight against his former comrades. There are so many other shocking stories and these are mostly documented. Oh yes, you would say those were isolated. What happened in the past are still happening today. If not for media and other decent journalists, these GIs’ abuses against civilians would not be easily known. In the military especially the Marines, there’s a code of silence similar to the practice of the Mafia mobs. Toney, are you also following this code of silence?
I’m reposting this, in response to Bush’s worshippers here.
1. Go to Google.com
2. type “failure” (minus quote marks) in the search box
3. click “I’m feeling lucky” instead of of “Google Search”
The local version, google.com.ph, wherein typing “sinungaling” takes you to Sec. Bunye’s OPS homepage, has been blocked already.
Peace, out.
U.S. Military Aid to Latin America Linked to Human Rights Abuses
http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=252
THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY
Investigative Journalism in the Public Interest
U.S. Linked to Abuses in Latin America
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Latin_America/US_Linked_Abuses_LAmer.html
Why did the US really go to war?
PIPELINE TO 911
http://www.mondovista.com/pipeline.html
USA, through the CIA helped in the installation of Saddam into power by giving him the approval to launch a coup against his Baathist allies. Iraq was once called America’s baby. During Iraq’s war with Iran, US supported Saddam by supplying him ingredients to make chemical and biological weapons which he used against Iran. In another turned of events, Oliver North, sold arms to Iran to fight Iraq, which act, the war came to a standstill thereby neutralizing both warring countries. Ang ginawa ng US sa Iran at Iraq ay pinag-sabong sila. By then Saddam figured out that he was back-stabbed by America asked the ruling royals of Kuwait to forgive his debts that he incurred during the war with Iran. Kuwaiti refused and Saddam invaded Kuwait.
Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait came out the Desert Storm of Bush Sr. but Bush Sr. decided to let Saddam in power, as deterrence to Iran if it plans to move into Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
Meanwhile a wealthy religious young man from Saudi Arabia, inspired by the Iranian fundamentalist revolution recruits volunteer fighters and “Al Queda” or “The Base” is born and the young man is Osama bin Ladin. Sheik Omar welcomed bin Laden as an honored quest of Afghanistan. When the US decided to keep its troops in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden declared war on the US from a cave in Afghanistan. The FBI and CIA, were asleep on the job at that time, and so 9/11 happened. Bush have a hard time accepting the reality about the attack on the US mainland and so he declared war back. The Talibans should not go away with it.
That’s where all these events started, by a simple change of regime by the CIA in installing Saddam, rolled and set off the entire chain of events. But IRAQ is not the Taliban. The Talibans are in Afghanistan, so why did Bush attack Iraq? Well, BUSH SR. started it as DESERT STORM so BUSH JR. wanted to finish it as DESSERT STORM.
florry,
Iyong gumawa ng pelikulang Alexander (Oliver Stone) at The Alamo (John Lee Hancock/John Sayles) — Sana sa susunod na gagawa sila na may patungkol sa US liberation of Kuwait, eh huwag nilang kalimutan na ang “Anglo-Ottoman Convention of 1913” at si “Percy Cox”.
…
Salamat …kababasa ko lang na ito palang Kuwait ay dating sakop ng “Seleucid Kingdom”(‘The Historical Basis for Our Claim to Kuwait’).
florry,
Actually it started way back in 1953 when the British was losing oil from iran and asked help from the President US Eisenhower to topple Iranian Premier Mossadegh. Eisenhower called Mossadegh a communist and have the CIA topple Mossadegh for Shah. Shah was brought to power for more than 20 years, but Ayatolah Komeni toppled him. But the Ayatolah is so violently opposed to the US. And then they installed Saddam to fight Iran.
Ok, Ladies and Gentlemen, what else is new. So you hate an Honorable Great Man, his excellecy President of the United States of America – his Majesty President George W. Bush. Yeow all can dig and research your archives from way back when. But, matter of fact and the truth of the nutshell, when I asked many of you to raise your right hand, if you better off to live under the auspices of the Talibans or Al Queda, how many of you have raised your hand? Right! Now how many nudge your head in appreciation of a great man President George Bush resolved? I see, at least, it give you something to think about.
If you hate Americans, why even bother to consider United States as a safe heaven when that fanatic in NOKOR is out of his picking cotton mind. Yeah, I’ve a home in the United States, I suppose I could live there and away from nuke. Such hyporisy….
Anyway, you may sleep well tonight, because Great Man President George Bush won’t let you down. He’s on guard to keep you safety, would the Talibans and Al Queda do that for you?
Anna:
About NOKOR nuke, you probably have some inside info in NOKOR. Perhaps, mine is outdated, I thought still being debated, including the capability of delivery missiles. but, I heard it from you first. Great!
Huh?
What was that Toney? I didn’t understand what you wanted or was saying… about “but, I heard it from you first. ” What was that you heard first from me?
But, I’m curious, who said about hating Americans?
Did anybody say that here? Has anybody here read any blogger about HATING AMERICANS…
npongco:
You don’t have or no need to be insulting, it’s nothing but strong disagreement. Your direct statement wasn’t appreciated, Amboys, Amgirls, or Amgays whatever you call yourselves..” For your generalized information, I’m neither of the above, if you’re addressing me personally. Nice try!
I also noticed that you did some homework about torture, awesome. But, I guess if one put some time in and/or with good memory recalls, will not have a problem and perhaps could filled several pages of this blog in presenting tortured that were happened in the past, and not only limited to Americans. Would you agree? Anyway, the argument I was making the accustion you’ve made about, “emotional and psychological torture on the Iraqui prisoners”, as you claimed. That’s what I expected from you and not about mY Lai Massacre, somebody’s vagina got cut (uhhhhh how painful), Balangiga, etc. While you were at it, how about Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan…why not, if we want fairness.
Toney,
Why don’t you share the “outdated” info you have instead of going over the top? People here will appreciate.
Also, I don’t think you should take it sooooo very hard that your beloved, adorable, beautiful Bush is not loved by everybody.
I mean, c’mon that’s a bit too much to ask of everyone. After all, there’s already YOU loving him and adoring him – don’t you think that’s enough for the moment? Otherwise, the reverse effect might happen – too much love might suffocate the poor fellow…
Anna:
Honorable President George Bush is the President of the United States of American and he represent the welfare of the majority of the Americans, if you can understand it. You hate President Bush, you hate the Americans, Neverthelss, read others posting, perhaps not in so many, but it quite obvious the jealousy against the Americans and the hates. Word not need not to be said.
You said, NOKOR is already have the nuke, “but they already possses the nuke”, your words in verbatim. Like I said, I thought still being debated. So, now I heard it from you for the first time.
Anna:
Nothing to share with anyone, if I have, I will share it. As like I said before, should NOKOR be allowed to have a nuke? What I read was that no one really know for sure because of the NOKOR’s secrecy. Of course, some countries like the USA is assuming the worst. I’m not in the position to know, but you seem very positive about NOKOR nuke. Great!
Anna:
You are being a smart alec and trying to be funny. ha ha ha, laughing with you….my beloved, adorable, beautiful Bush… loving, adoring him…Anna my dear, what are you drinking their in Belgiums? You got a bottle of wine next to you, would you share it with me?
Anna, just I believe that are evil people’s out there will stop at nothing to kill me and those closest to me. But, knowing one person against all odds is trying to the best to protect me and those dearest to me, that also may include your love ones, if you can believe that. I also believe the precious of liberty and freedom of expression. And Afghanistan and Iraq people’s never have such choice, most especially the women and children. My heart cried out for them. Luckily Belgiums is out of harms way, I hope it keep that way. And my own personal observation, most of Europe are playing politics scared to offend the muslim nations.
That’s what the blast is all about, supposedly… anyway, I don’t think there’s anything to fear for the moment – NOKOR, even if it has one today, will not drop it onto good ol USA!
As I said, I believe the little north Korean guy will use it as a deterrence.
Toney,
Re your so encompâssing statement; “You hate President Bush, you hate the Americans”
I beg your pardon? I certainly don’t hate my sisters nor my aunt and uncle nor my nephews and nieces who are bona fide American citizens!
How could you even equate not loving Bush with HATING Americans… That’s being utterly simplistic Toney! Hold your horses, man!
Toney,
I don’t know about Belgium being out of harm’s way – hopefully because it is such a tiny country but I believe that it is in as much risky position as any other nation that is target of ire by any rogue elements; moreover it is houses the symbol of a united Western military power, NATO and SACEUR (Supreme Allied Command Europe). It really could be an easier magnet for terrorism.
To give you some examples: During the invasion of Iraq or 3 years ago, my children’s school (English school) brought down the British flag so as not to be too conspicuous.
The school has a no-uniform wearing policy because the children, including mine, could be easy target for terrorists or kidnappers for Britain’s involvement in Iraq.
School bus routes are regularly revised and there is always a supervisor on board that submits ^route reports.
Anna:
I did paint a generalization of American or Bush Haters, of course, I hope you can accept the exception to the rule. I hope so anyway. Just seems not a let up since day one was elected to the position, they just keep attacking what I thought is a great man. I also will be lying, if I tell you President didn’t have his shortcomings and faults. He’s just human being, just like you and I. But, the man has an awesome task to keep American safe – damn he do and damn if he don’t. Ain’t no glory where he’s sitting now. Decisions has to be made, and he made it. What else need to explain?
Like he said, either you against us or with us – the Americans.
Toney,
Let me assure you that I understand the concerns of each and every peace loving individual because no mother, worthy of the name, would want to put her children in harm’s way.
This is the reason why I believe that invasion or war or antagonizing the moderates in any religion (including Christians) is the right course of action when what we all want is to annihilate terrorists and their scourge on humanity – antagonizing our would be allies in any religion (including Catholics/Christians) or nation is clearly breeding more fanaticism as in what’s happening in Iraq.
Iraq was invaded for something it had not done or for things it didn’t have. Why punish Iraqi women, children, who were already suffering prior to the invasion because of the sanctions when a different course could have been taken to get rid of Saddam?
oops, I meant “is NOT is the right course of action”
NOKOR Claimed the blast was a succesful of the nuke test underground. Seismic tremor confirmed the blast, yet it could be anything. Since no one can verify the level of radiation. Is it a bluff for the United States to come to the table to negotiate, your guess is good as mine. But I won’t trust Kim for all the tea in China. United Nation I hope to take the lead, we can forget China and Russia to go along, and both are members of the security council. Can you see the dilemma the President Bush is in now. Alreay the opposition is blaming him for letting NOKOR to test, they think President Bush should’ve send the bombers. It’s a no win for President Bush, he’ll get the blame either way.
Toney,
“It’s a no win for President Bush, he’ll get the blame either way.”
Normal, comes with the job. He wanted it, he got it now, he’s got to make do with everything he’s got on his plate.
Anna:
Invading Iraq was unanimous consensus among the country of willing (the coalition), it was based on the intelligence gathered. It has the good intention, but war is unpredictable as you can imagine.
Annihilate terrorist? This will never happen in our lifetime, but President Bush can slow them down, is the game plan or strategy, if I’ve to guess.
I believe something good is coming out of Afghanistan and Iraq, as I mentioned before. At least, the people of 50 millions are now been exposed to democracy, they’ve now a choice in which they never have before with Saddam and Talibans were in power. The plus side of Iraq invasion, not to mention getting rid of fanatics.
Toney,
“At least, the people of 50 millions are now been exposed to democracy, they’ve now a choice in which they never have before with Saddam and Talibans were in power.”
You and I understand that the intention is there but the means was wrong.
Read reports by The Times (UK) or by Robert Fisk of the Telegraph or perhaps by Mick Smith.
Anyway, NATO (NOT ONLY US but all of NATO) is gaining grounds in Afghanistan because the overall strategy was changed recently to engage the civilians – parallel to combat mission, the economic mission is gaining momentum and this is how it should be. NATO Commander says that otherwise, the Afghan civilians will revert to supporting Taleban. This is the new policy and not just scorch earth policy which was the prevailing US policy before the NATO takeover.
Anna:
I would like to hear from your own assessement about what President Bush should do about NOKOR. Should he wait to negotiate or let the United Nation to handle it? In my persoal opinion Kopi and and others members of UN are gutless wonder. Just look around us and past performances, Dafor, Africa, NOKOR and how about Iran. Should they continue with their quest of Nuke. Both NOKOR and Iran are in violation of nuke proliferation, according to UN. But where is UN all this time. Of course, you can almost guess, the USA will take the lead as super power, and be blamed for being aggresive once again.
Bush and the US apologists and defenders are welcome in this blog. So, you’re very welcome…Toney. CIA operatives and propagandists are scattered all over the world. And they are all around us even in this blog.
I hope you’re not tortured by my statements and comments. I have always been saying that the Americans are basically nice people. It’s Bush and the US foreign policy that sucks. Do you know that even Americans themselves hate their country and their leaders? Many GIs even went AWOL and some went over to Canada. So, not all US soldiers are bad. But why history tells us so many abuses and atrocities committed by these GIs is something even the strongest Bush defender cannot explain.
Toney, you mentioned Genghis Khan and other warlords of yesterday. It would be good for you to look back where these white caucasians in Northern America came from. Weren’t they Barbarians? Even these present Australians were former criminals from England.
Florry, you forgot to mention Panama’s Gen. Noriega. He was also pampered with tender love and affection by the US for 20 years before being kidnapped by the US Marines right in his own country. Who says we hate the US? No one says it here. It’s the world that hates the US today.
“Should he wait to negotiate or let the United Nation to handle it?”
Honestly? This is just a hunch Toney: I think the little mad North Korean actually wants aid and he got pissed off when Bush shunned his proposal a year ago to meet so, my best bet is for Bush to open channels of communication with the mad guy there in Pyongyang – at least by doing this we will be able to assess the real situation.
But Bush should refrain from threats. Kung magtitigasan lang – walang kalalabasan. Bush has the upper hand here still! But the problem is his advisers will tell him “What about our pride?”
Anna:
The means was wrong? How many times the UN handed down the UN resolution to Iraq? 17 times and those were ignored by Saddam. Can you really trust the Talibans and Al Queda to come to the table in the United Nation? If the United States has to wait for UN and Nato to re-act after 9/11 while Bin Ladin having his tea in the Mountain somewhere and plotting more attacks, President will be hang by the Americans for doing nothing. I believe the cause and the actions taken were just. I also truly believe that you can’t negotiate with the Talibans or Al Queda. And the United Nation tried with Saddam and failed. So, there are no choice, but to invade Iraq.
Toney,
“Annihilate terrorist? This will never happen in our lifetime,”: That’s quite probable.
Europe may speak greatly on the matter of experience with terrorists which has been ongoing for the last 35 – 40 years on European soil or long before the US had 9/11.
Britain has IRA (irish republican army) that almost killed the whole Thatcher government by sending a missile while they were meeting.
Corsican terrorists in France – ongoing with lots of deaths on the side of government and civilian population in Corsica.
ETA: Basque organization that’s been wreaking havoc in Spain through bombs killing and maiming civilians.
Ultra-nationalist right wing parties and anti-semitic organizations: bombing synagogues and killing civilians in the process…
IRA or the Northern Irish Republican Army who are nothing but terrorists were actually funded by Americans.
Kim wants bilateral talk with President Bush alone. And President Bush wants six or seven nations meeting with Kim, and Kim rejected it. President Bush don’t want to give any credibility to Kim by having a bilateral talk. Kim is a madman and I agree, he has directing all the country’s resources to his military while the people are starving.
We don’t know what’s going to happen. NOKOR is a treat to Asian countries, if NOKOR really have what they claimed they have. Negotiation is an option, but military force shoud be on the table. You and I, just have to wait and see. We have a fanatic north of the Philippines and crazy woman in the Philippines. Those two should get together, surely they deserve each other. Kim will have is nuke and Gloria her Pidal.
So Toney,
You reckon that we should nuke the countries that have or are purporting to have the nukes if they don’t toe the line?
Nuke Teheran, nuke Pyongyang, where else?
While we are at it, we could also nuke Kashmir…oh wait, Musharaff is already Bush’s best friend in that part of the world.
Nuke Beijing too?
Because Beijing has been supporting the litlle mad man in N Korea…
Anna:
You’ve been behaving yourselve, then you’ve to strike against the Americans. Just can’t help it eh…”Republiccan Army who are nothing but terrorists were actually funded by Americans. How do you know this? It could be some Irish living in American working hard so can help their cause, and not necessarily the Americans as you claimed. Did I prove my point of American haters or what? Don’t you think, on the positive note that portion of Ireland doesn’t want to be under UK domination.
Toney,
For crying out loud! These are not MY reports! They came from both American and British reporters and were all over Newsweek and Time magazines in the past! Jesus Christ!
Why do you think Clinton went to Belfast in Northern Ireland many years ago? To broker peace talks! Because intelligence gathered that funds were coming from America used to buy weapons – Am not saying they came from THE U.S. GOVERNMENT but they came from Americans!
Anna:
Nuke should never be used, but conventional bomb should be considered. Just to slow Kim in building his WMD. You just never know what this madman will do, If he has it, there is a good chance he will sell it to the terrorist. Can you just imagine the chaos that will create in Europe, Asia and the USA. I think it should be bombed, if the UN can find the target.
And Toney, lest you forget, I told you already that I am an American passport holder and therefore, TECHNICALLY, I too am an American citizen so do be quiet about this HATE AMERICAN thing, will you?
Really you are going over the top there!
Anna:
You want to nuke everybody, you sure you’re not drinking their alone and not offering us any. Take a deep breath, some fresh air in your lung. Got some fresh air there in Belgiums? I was in Paris (Iron Tower – Eiffel) and London recently but I never made it in Belgium.
I suspect YOU AIN’T THE ONLY AMERICAN CITIZEN (if you are) OR THE ONLY ONE LIVING IN THE U.S. (if you are) OR THE ONLY ONE WITH FAMILY AND RELATIVES LIVING IN THE U.S. IN THIS THREAD TONEY!
Ellen, am outa this thread…
Anna:
It doesn’t matter whose report it is, but the connotation is there. I hope with American passport you will say something positive about America next time soon. Anyway, everybody got their problem, Ireland will manage to survive.
Anna;
American citizen? I’m a prime grade “A”, 100 percent blue blooded Pilipino. My loyalty is to the Philippines and not necesarily to illegitimate Gloria. I do appreciate and the good things the Americand are doing. I believe Americans are the most generous people in time of real need, such as natural disasters. Americans with unmatched super power has a mission to keep this world safe. That’s my strong belief. Outa here also.
Anna, no use arguing with this Filipino Jew living under the comforting arms of Bush and the Republicans. Let’s move on to better topics.
hmmmm, sabi ko na nga ba eh. ano kaya ang puno’t dulo nito? o baka naman epekto ito ng argument na “the glass is half empty,” pero ang nakikita ng isa ay “the glass is half-full.” count me out.
npongco:
You’ve a tendency to drive-by with suggestive unfavorable remarks, quite unethical. Have you notice? I suppose, I shouldn’t be surprised nor to expect more from you. It’s what it is and I should be the one to make adjustment or get use to it. Filipino Jew? How do you define a Filipino Jew by the way? Is there such thing or just want to insult publicly with Jewish faith? Is that a prejudicial remark, by the way? I hope no Filipino Jew are in this blog reading such tasteless remark. It appeard you are expert on Jew to keep using the label. You should explain yourself, instead of drive-by shooting.
I also appreciate that you welcome me in this blog. I must remember to mention it to Ellen about her partnership with you.
hawaiianguy:
It’s good for the soul, to learn others behavior and how they come across. Quite truthful, it’s a learning curve for me as well. I can’t say I enjoy it, but at the same I don’t dislike it. I guess, expect the unexpected. Di ba?
Don’t count yourself out and join the fun. Bring your glass half full, and think positive. Plenty of room and more the merrier.
Aba, mukhang sumarap na naman ang bakbakan sa thread na ito. Sa palagay ko lang, ang mainis siyang talo.
Hating or despising a person’s stupidity isn’t exactly hating the country and people it represents.
So hating the actions of Bush doesn’t necessarily mean hating America and the Americans.
Likewise hating the evilness and wickedness of The Glue, does not mean that you hate the Philippines and the Filipino people.
There’s a dividing line between hatred to a person and its actions vs the subject it represents.
florry:
Thanks! But it would be good to know for clarification of the person’s stupidity? Won’t you agree, and debate it if becomes necessary. To drive-by shooting will not accomplish anything but some animosity in which should be avoided at any cost.
Thank you for keeping the discussion sensible. We don’t have to agree with each other but we should respect each other’s right to express his opinion.
I appreciate Toney’s remark that “To drive-by shooting will not accomplish anything but some animosity in which should be avoided at any cost.”
If we are to take time to share our views here, let’s make it worth while.
Toney,
I agree and I want to make some clarifications:
The first statement is generalized and do not specifically pinpoint or applied to any particular person.
That was used as the basis for the subsequent statements that followed.
Attn: anna & norpil
anna, ano sa palagay mo ang opinion ng France at Belgium sa Turkish membership sa EU?Ano rin ang personal mong opinyon?
norpil, Ano sa pananaw mo ang pagiging independent ng norway sa EU?
Nakakapagtaka bakit mas pinili ng Norway ang maging parte ng isang Military bloc kaysa maging miyembro ng Economic grouping.
Ang Euroscepticsm ba ang isa sa mga dehilan kung bakit walang pakialam ang mga Norwegian sa relasyon ng Turkey sa EU?
Toney, I don’t drive by…drive by shooting is not my style. I shoot straight to one’s head. Now if you would show your head, I shall put a hole in it. Or you prefer that I chop it off using a Samurai (if this Ninja lends it to me)?
Nelbar,
I think I’ve posted something on the Turkey admission to EU in another thread.
Am opposed to the admission of Turkey for the moment – maybe in 15 or 20 years.
They will have to put their house in order first, improve human rights record, improve record on corruption, and a couple of other things.
They basically have a different culture than mainstream Europe and I believe unless they address some of the issues I mentioned, the cultural difference will not help forge unity with rest of Europe and might excacerbate the difference.
That’s my contention.
Norway’s non-Europe membership (as explained to me by Norwegian delegates to NATO) is basically economic: they are already rich, they enjoy free citrculation in Europe because of their membership in NATO, they have access to freely trade within Europe through their Scandinavian neighbours, Denmark and Sweden with whom they have a political and statutory alliance. So why join EU and be compelled to follow its internal rules?
anna,
nabasa ko lang sa Voice for Europe ang “Foul play suspected in Turkey accession process”.
Sana may English version ng http://www.standaard.be/
Ano ba pinagkaiba ng Wallonian sa Flanders?
Ngayon ko na lang ito nalaman itong Flanders dahil noong HS pa ako ang pagkakaalam ko “Belgian” (from Belgian Congo)para sa mga taga Brussels.
Noong 1994 nang ginanap dito ang Miss Universe sa ‘Manila’, lalong nakilala ang Miss Belgium. Duon ko pa lang nalaman na “Flemish” dapat ang tawag sa kanya.
Gaya ng pagkakasabi sa akin ng kapatid ko, nang mapunta dyan sa area nang Netherlands-Belgium-English Channel route, ang tawag daw sa mga taga Norway ay “Norge”.
nelbar:tanong mo kung bakit pinili ng norway ang military bloc sa halip na economic grouping.sa nato siguro ang military bloc na iniisip mo. kasi matagal na itong nato at kaya hindi naman sila namili between the two.mula pa noong 2.ww sila member nito at satisfied naman sila, bakit naman sila aalis sa isang bagay na nakapagbibigay sa kanila ng security. dito naman sa economic grouping na european community. makailan ng magbotohan dito tungkol diyan pero laging nasa majority ang laban na mag member sila diyan. ang mga norwego kasi ay parang mga probinsyano na ayaw nilang mawala sa control nila ang kanilang mga natural resources tulad ng langis at isda sa dagat na alam naman nila na kapag sumapi sila sa european community ay mawawala na sa control nila.sa ngayon nga mas malaki pa ang bayad nila para makapag benta lang ng kanilang goods sa ec kaysa mag member sila pero ayaw pa rin nila so far. pero din natin alam next time na mag botohan sila uli.mayroon naman silang ibang kasama tulad ng switzerland at island na small countries din.
dito sa comment mo na ang tawag daw sa mga taga norway ay norge ay mali ito dahil ang norge ay norwegian word for norway. ang norwegian word naman sa mga norwegian ay nordman. ang pinoy word na ginagamit namin ay norwego.ito naman for info lang at no harm meant.
salamat mga kabansa!
naniniwala talaga ako na sana magkaroon ng “3rd chamber of congress” — kayo yun na nasa ibang bansa!
Ang persepsyon ko sa Pilipinas ay ito ang magiging “makabagong Europa”, na kung saan ang bangsamoro ay ang Thrace at Rumelia.
💡
gtg 🙂
Nelbar,
Re: “Ano ba pinagkaiba ng Wallonian sa Flanders?”
Belgium is officially a bi-lingual country.
1st difference is language; Wallonians are mainly French-speaking and Flanders are Flemmish or Dutch-dialect speaking
2nd difference: basically, the Wallonians are those who have geographically and culturally linked to their immediate neigbours to the West which is France while the Flammands (or Flemmish) find their geographical or cultural roots linked to their Dutch neighbours.
3rd difference (this is my own or persona view only): economic – for a long long while, the Wallonians enjoyed economic prosperity to the, say, “detriment” of their Flemmish cousins but the last two or 3 decades have seen a rise in the economic status of the Flemmish, partly they say because the Wallonians’s inherent “superiority complex” (careful, I was only told this by friends here) and therefore refused to do the “lowly” jobs which the Flemmish were forced to do. In the run off to economic prosperity (during the establishment of EU), the Flemmish left their Wallonian cousins behind, not by much but significant enough to create ill will between the two; the Flemmish say they work hard and do anything for two: for themselves and for the Wallonians (alluding to tax payments).
Basically, to me, both ARE the same culturally in terms of general mentality (I say that for convenience purposes although it’s difficult to generalize. They are Roman Catholics in general and have the same King and believe that overall that they are Belgians once and for all.
There is, however, something that I find perplexing here is their attitude towards each other: Belgium is almost GEOGRAPHICALLY divided between French speakers and Belgian speakers.
I have foreign expat friends living in Flemmish Belgium who have experienced being ignored by City Hall officials because they spoke French and found that the City Hall folks would rather speak to them in English rather than in French (which Flemmish children are obliged to learn at school) which my friends suspect as a form of asserting their culture. Same thing I should say is true in the French-speaking communities of Belgium.
There is, like Norway, a “provincial” like aspect to the “mentality” in Belgium and to Belgians. But on the whole, I find that they are quickly opening up and becoming cosmopolitan, thanks to expatriates working in EU, NATO and other European institutions.
Anna, All:
A friend has emailed this to me:
War Crimes Report Shows US Violations of International Law
Demands Prosecution of US Military and Civilian Leaders
The violence of the Iraq War, the chaos that has come to Iraq, can be traced directly to the illegality of the invasion and occupation of that country and the illegality of the tactics and weapons being used to maintain the occupation. U.S. War Crimes in Iraq and Mechanisms for Accountability documents these violations and calls on us all to demand investigation and prosecution of violations of international law by military and civilian leaders.
The report was prepared by Consumers for Peace.org with the advice of Karen Parker, noted lawyer in human rights and humanitarian law. Ms. Parker is President of the San-Francisco-based Association of Humanitarian Lawyers (www.humanlaw.org) and Chief Delegate to the United Nations for the Los Angeles-based International Educational Development/Humanitarian Law Project (IED/AHL), an accredited non-governmental organization on the U.N. Secretary-General?s list.
Dahr Jamail, noted independent journalist who spent more than eight months reporting from occupied Iraq, writes the following about the report:
I cannot endorse strongly enough this report prepared by Karen Parker regarding U.S. war crimes in Iraq. Having witnessed much of what is so well documented in this report, it is a clear and encompassing indictment of the Bush Administration for the war crimes they are directly responsible for in Iraq. Until evidence such as this begins to see the light of day in a court of law and the perpetrators brought to justice, the world remains unsafe and unstable from an administration determined to rule the world. After witnessing what they are capable of in Iraq, I have no doubt these people will not stop in their quest for world domination.? Instead, they must be stopped. And the only way to do that is bring the guilty to justice. This document will help achieve that goal. Click here to read the report in full [pdf]
Kathy Kelly, co-coordinator of Voices for Creative Non-Violence, three-time nominee for the Noble Peace Prize, who has visited Iraq 28 times in the last 15 years, writes of the report:
After spending four days in the fortified and secure Green Zone, in Iraq, during September 06, former Secretary of State James Baker III assured that the investigative panel he led had not spent any time wringing our hands over what mistakes might or might not have been created in the past. (NYT, September 20, 2006). The Consumers for Peace report on war crimes committed in Iraq helps us understand our responsibility not to wring our hands but rather to demand accountability from elected representatives by delivering this report to them and to local media. How many people killed? How many families torn apart? How many homes destroyed? How many livelihoods gone? How many lives ruined? How many cities sacrificed? We bear responsibility to end the war in Iraq, insist on just reparations for suffering caused, and promote careful, legal scrutiny of the crimes committed. This report beckons all who read it to stop collaborating with illegal, immoral warmongers who recklessly afflict Iraq. Click here to read the report in full [pdf]
Neil MacKay, multi-award winning Home Affairs and Investigations Editor of the Sunday Herald (Scotland), writes:
“What has happened in Iraq is a great sin and a great crime. The invasion and occupation have stained the concepts of democracy, freedom and liberty; and disgraced the good name of the people of both the United States of America and Great Britain. As a journalist who has investigated the roots of this war, and the on-going horror of what is happening in Iraq, I fully commend this report to readers. It is an important reminder of the blood which is on the hands of our leaders, and the shame that the governments of the UK and the USA have brought to the British and American people by perpetrating a criminal war in our name.” Click here to read the report in full [pdf]
Click here to read the report in full
The report is being published on the internet by:
Consumers for Peace
http://www.consumersforpeace.org
Association of Humanitarian Lawyers
http://www.humanlaw.org
Traprock Peace Center
http://www.traprockpeace.org
Voices for Creative Nonviolence
http://www.vcnv.org
Uruknet
http://www.uruknet.info
Information Clearing House
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
Two filipinos Carlos Conde (www.prodi.net/) and cvj here out scooped MSNBC from showing that Habeas Corpus and The Bill of Rights have been taken away from the American people by the great George W. Bush. So there is no difference between NoKor and USA. What’s going on?
October 03, 2006 | Filed under Today’s Stuff, Politics
When the U.S. Senate voted last week to grant President George W. Bush the extraordinary power to name any person, American or not, an “enemy combatant” — somebody who is deprived of the right to question the charges against him let alone face his accuser, who can be jailed for long periods of time without anybody knowing about it — America pretty much ceased being a democracy. The Bush administration is now no different from the most despotic of regimes.
Correction that was promdi.net
ystakei,
Now, from your news to my news, Karen Parker, noted lawyer in human rights and humanitarian law, can be deprived of the right to question the charges against her let alone face her accuser, who can be jailed for long periods of time without anybody knowing about it. If that Bush would wish it to be on her and that is just insane.
nelbar: sorry, mayroon pa pala akong di nasagot duon sa entry mo tungkol sa eu at turkey. palagay ko hindi naman puedeng makialam ang norway diyan dahil hindi naman sila member ng eu. kasama naman ang turkey sa nato kaya parang pareho ang situation nila pero ang kaibhan ay marami ang mga members ng eu na gusto nila makasama ang norway pero baligtad naman sa turkey dahil marami naman ang ayaw kahit gusto nilang mag-member. personally ay ok lang naman palagay ko na maging member ang turkey ng eu dahil kasama naman sila sa maraming cultural activities sa europe. sa germany lang ay 5 million ang turkish, dati ay ok na sana sila sa germany pero ngayon ay bumaligtad yata itong si angela dahil na rin siguro sa magiging unpopular decision ito.
Norpil,
Makisingit na nga…
Re: “personally ay ok lang naman palagay ko na maging member ang turkey ng eu dahil kasama naman sila sa maraming cultural activities sa europe. sa germany lang ay 5 million ang turkish,”
Nasa EU citizens ang approval niyan at hindi maski 5 milyon sila sa Germany ay dapat na include na sila – tanungin dapat muna iyong lahat na member nations. At iyan ang mangyayari.
From recent polls, ayaw ng mga Eurôpeans for the moment, basically, the reasons are the same as I have enumerated.
Buti na lang, nakikinig pa ang mga leaders pareho ni Angela Merkel sa mga taong bayan. Kung ang mga tao ay handa na para sa inclusion ng Turkey e ok, lang.
But today, is not the time.
anna: ang sabi ko ay personal opinion ko iyan. totoo naman na 5 million ang turkish sa germany.sabi ko pa norway ay hindi rin puedeng makialam diyan.tungkol dito kay merkel na sabi mo ay nakikinig sa mga taong bayan ay ok din iyan pero kung ang isang lider ay nakikinig lang sa mga popularity polls ay medyo delikado. si hitler ay popular nuong time niya.dapat may vision din ang isang lider hindi basta popularity polls lang.
Norpil,
Alam ko na personal opinyon mo iyan pero bakit delikado na makinig ang leaders sa taong bayan? (Kung kumpara mo si Hitler, siya ang nag fabricate ng maraming polls, palagay ko mahirap ng maulit iyan sa Germany pero, who knows?)
Siyempre, pag wala ng vision di sipain na siya from office – mahirap ang bulag sa puwestong pinakamataas.
Anyway, Europe was created to prevent another war in the likes of WWII. It would be untenable if future members don’t have what it takes to follow the rules of the Union.
Personally, I will help campaign against the non-inclusion of Turkey into the EU if it’s tabled for resolution in the very near future.
Anna,you and I have been to Afghanistan. Ikaw nga hanggang loob pa while my group and I were prevented from going further than Kabul because the area was still dangerous then.
We had a fair briefing on the actual condition there after the US air attacks on the actual condition then by the members of RAWA, an organization of Afghan women, whose narrative, etc. about their country I will believe more than the prejudiced opinions of ignoramuses who lap up only propaganda.
npongco:
npongco’s cyberspace threat, “I shoot straight to one’s head. Now if you would show your head, I shall put a hole in it. Or I chop it off using a samurai….” I re-read your threatening remarks directed toward me with intent to kill or to do bodily harm. It’s quite frightening that their is such a disturbed killer on the loose in this blog, hiding behind the computer screen. Kinda reminded me of Kim Jong II, when the fanatic madman of North Korea threatened the world with the underground nuke testing. You two are much alike, and there are no difference between you and Kimchi Jong II? It appeared you and Kimchi are both dangerous that bear watching. I don’t know if you have the level of comprehension to understand of what about to tell you, this is for you own welfare and safety of others around you. npongco, you’ve an obvious early sympton of derangement, a mental disorder. You need to make an appointment to see a professional for medical treatment. This is for you own good and others in this blog. Just read and examine what you wrote, do you think that came from a normal person?
I’m just trying to help you, and I hope you’ll consider in seeing a mental doctor for your own good. I hate to see your head inside the computer screen because of your uncontrollable behavior. It really sad that are such person like you that are unrestrained and running free in public. But, I hope that there is still some hope for you. The team need you with your orderly manner.
Goodluck!
Toney, do you know that I also possess Nuke? Running shoes made famous by Michael Jordon’s slogan “Let’s Do It”. I can launch a pair to you if you like…
Toney Cuevas:
Ipagkumpara mo ang message # 54 & 30 sa Arroyo’s delusion topic?
npongoc:
Look npongco, I don’t dislike you perhaps you’re an okay person before you got all messed up upstair, but you really need professional medical help. I would like to have a civilized exchanges with you, yet I don’t think it’s possible in your questionable condition. When you ready to have a polite dialogue, I’ll be here. However, you need to show sign of orderly behavior. I’ve known people like you, with proper help they were able to re-join the society, and became productive. So, ain’t too late for you.
Best of luck to you.
Toney, I’m willing to see a mental doctor or psychiatrist if you go with me. Let’s consult one together.
Nelbar:
I can handle it. Give it to me straight. Ain’t good in counting. We don’t have secret here, only in Malacanang.
October 11th, 2006 at 10:16 am
Love at first sight! Love is grand! Love is blind! Platonic love between madwoman and madman!
October 11th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Pasalamat nga kayo at mahaba ang pesensya sa inyo ng Presidente kung kay Marcos yan matagal ka ng na salvaged.
* * *
Toney,
ikaw na nagsabi ng platonic, sana hwag tayong padadala sa mga pasaring dito. 🙂
Alam mo, Nelbar, mahirap talaga ang mga walang alam. I don’t read pointless messages here or anywhere, and I answer only those I find sensible, or with whom I can debate the way debate should be done—no hitting below the belt, or something that I believe should be corrected in good faith. Hindi naman kailangan maging bastos sa totoo lang.
I have also resolved not to benefit the Internet Brigade with my attention. Japanese attitude, “Leave it, magsasawa rin iyan.” Kundi naman pabayaan mong mabuwang ng tuluyan. Hindi pa sasakit ang ulo mo.
Thanks nelbar! I did say it in reference to illegitimate Gloria and Kimchi Jong II. I think those two are compatible waving at each other. At least, as their pictures would suggest.
Mr. Cuevas, huwag mong hamakin ang lider ng North Korea dahil mahilig din ako sa kimchi. Huwag kayong mag-alala…hindi mapapaano ang North Korea hanggang nasa likod ang Tsina. Bago ibagsak ang North Korea, ang Tsina muna. Sige lang…
artsee:
I’ll heed to your request, for a moment. One of my very closed friend was married to a Korean woman and everytime I visited them I get treated with the homemade Kimchi. Love it! If you like Kimchi I guess you can relate to the scent, it stays in your mouth for days. Kim Jong II and Our Gloria are an easy target for fun/joke because of the pictures. They are both natural for nasty comments.
Yung mga may i-Pod at Mac computers diyan, mag-ingat kayo at baka mainsulto ang mga miembro ng “religion of peace.” Huwag ninyong kalimutang basahin yung mga comments sa ibaba ng article. Kung hindi mag-work yung link, paki-cut-and-paste na lang ninyo.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=3&entry_id=4203
Hindi galit yan, lambing lang.
Heto ang itsura ng nasabing Apple store building mula ng opening last nitong nakaraang May. Yun palang itim na cover ay para lang nung under construction pa yung building. Ano kaya ang mangyayari sa building na ito considering ang sentiment ng mga members ng “religion of peace?”
Heto naman ang listahan ng mga bagay na hindi makakainsulto sa naturang mga members:
Gusto ninyong makita uli?
http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthavenue/week/20061008.html
Wow, natahimik na dito. Either walang nang masabi ang mga posters dito o ini-ignore na lang itong topic at yung mga links na isinama ko. Or maaari din na hindi yung topic kundi ako ang ini-ignore. Ok lang din.
Tom, maybe no one wants to discuss with you.
Ako…kakausapin ko na lang si Tom. Kawawa naman. Tom…kumusta ka? Matulog ka na lang ng mahimbing ha!
artsee: Salamat naman at naawa ka sa akin. Hu hu. Hindi ko kailangan ang wish mo na makatulog ako nang mahimbing dahil lagi namang mahimbing ang tulog ko at panatag ang loob ko. Hindi ko rin kailangan ang awa mo kahit ibinigay mo. Hindi ko rin kailangan na kausapin mo ako dahil wala ka namang kahit anong sinabi (maliban dito dahil tinukoy mo ako) na interesado ako. O baka lang naduling ka, o hindi mo naintindihan yung isinulat ko sa itaas na ok lang kung ako mismo ang ini-ignore sa thread na ito. Tapos na yung debate namin nina adb atbp. Yung mga tumira sa akin nang patagilid na hinamon ko, hindi na pumiyok kaya nga ok lang kung matapos na itong thread na ito. Ikaw kaya, nakakatulog ka nang mahimbing? Baka multuhin ka ni hawaiianguy!
Hi Tom:
October 13th, 2006 at 4:05 am
October 13th, 2006 at 6:05 am
October 13th, 2006 at 9:01 am
October 14th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
apat na beses ka na nagpost sa itaas at nakalagay pa kung anong oras?
at ang sinabi mo, “wow ang tahimik”.
ok lang ba kung ako naman magsabi na “OK din” diba?
Lesson:
dont judge a news by its pictures
o kaya …
dont judge a picture by its image
ibig sabihin, hwag mong husgahan kung ano man klase ang “tag-lish” ng bloggers dito sa ‘balay ni Ellen’.
Hi artsee:
Siguro kilala mo ang artista na tinutukoy ko noong 80’s?si BABAUTA?
At iyong isa pa na DJ ng FM radio dito sa Metro Manila, …yung Lupton ba yun?
Balita ko na-promote na yata sa Military yun o na demote? 😀 😀 😀
nelbar” Ang lalim naman ng bugtong mo, hindi ko maarok. Ano ba talaga ang hinanakit mo sa akin at tinira mo na naman ako ng patagilid? Bakit hindi mo isulat deretsahan kung ano ang arguments mo tungkol sa mga posts ko, with examples? O baka naman manduduro ka lang talaga. Ikaw rin ba si artsee at si npongco? Pare-pareho “kayong tatlo” na hindi ko naman tinutukoy by name pero bigla na lang akong titirahin. Pero pag kayo naman ang tinukoy ko by name at tinanong, wala namang sagot. Hindi ba nag-kakaintindihan ang multiple personalities ninyo?
Tom:
hindi tayo magka-away. Parehas at iisang bangka ang ating sinasakyan.
Kutsarita lang ang gamit ko samantalang ikaw at sagwan na.
sagot sa bugtong na sinasabi mo:
Si Tom Babauta ang sinasabi ko. At ang isa ay si Major Tom na Disc Jox ng isang FM radio station dito sa Metro Manila noong early 90’s.
Marahil ay nagtataka ka pa rin sa nauna kong tanong noong nakaraang linggo sa kabilang topic?
“Kayo ba na nasa abroad, lalo na sa MERIKA(US at CANADA, iisa lang), kapag nawalan ng trabaho ay sinusuportahan kayo ng gobyerno nyo dyan?”
Nag react lang ako sa tanong mo na “Wow, natahimik na dito”
paki tingnan ang oras at petsa ng unang post mo matapos kay Toney Cuevas
Ganon din bago ang message ni npongco noong October 14th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Gaya ng sinabi ni Mrivera:
aren’t we heading to a wrong way? just because of cultural indifferences? of old things in the past? some here are trying to be civil and sympathetic while a few do not stop “pasaring” to others.
ANG PILIPINAS AY PARANG ISANG EUROPA SA TIMOG SILANGANG ASYA
nelbar: O sige na nga, hindi tayo magkaaway. Tungkol sa last post ni npongco, ano ba ang hindi malinaw sa sinabi kong kung ini-ignore na either or both yung topic o ako mismo ay ok lang? Hindi ba tama yung obserbasyon kong natahimik na? Kung walang gustong makipag-discuss with me gaya ng sabi ni npongco, e di wala. Hindi naman ako nagtatampo o nagmamakaawa na pansinin ako. Kung hindi sumali si artsee, ok lang sa akin na yung post ni npongco ang last dito sa thread na ito. Wala akong illusion na importante ang mga posts ko dahil hindi ako kabilang sa mga “heavy hitters” dito gaya nina adb at ystakei. Karamihan ng posts ko, maliban dun sa debate namin ni adb atbp, mga observation. Ang gusto mo bang malaman talaga kung saan ako nakatira–sa Pilipinas o USA?